What if I can’t stop believing in Dinosaurs?
Dear Black Hat Rabbi,
I have read your anti-scientific and anti-Intellectual explanation of dinosaurs that you stole from the Fundamentalist Christians. You claim that the bones were created as fossils, that there were no dinosaurs.
Let’s say I don’t buy that. Let’s say I think this is complete bullsh-t.
Do you know how badly you discredit your movement with such claims?
And where, according to you, do we, the believers in dinosaurs, go from here?
40 comments
a section of jews have had this position from prior to any offical christian position as far as i can tell as far as them positing that the bones were just placed there.
why would you denigrate righteous sages who believe this?
Some dont even say this- some even say they existed within the framework of the six days which lasted much longer althoug they were 24 hours, as the theory of relativity would allow for.
and blah blah blah you know the story.
But denigrating gedolei yisroel who say that the above position is a possible one is one of the worst crimes a Jew could commit. The Talmud equates loshon hara as equal to the BIG 3.
And the Talmud says that loshon hara against talmidei chachamim is the worst of loshon hara and removes aperson from the world.
And the Talmud says that any aveirah done in public is a chillul Hashem. and when the act which is the Chillul Hashem is intentional then the punishment awaiting the person who commits the crime is the most severe because the talmud indicates that we are punished the most for the aveiros of rebellion and secondly for aveiros of laziness as opposed to aveiros that we commit through being overcome by physical tayva- so posting this on your site reaches the worst crimes.
Think about it. Why not just remove this slander that causes a major chillul Hashem from the site as you concommitantly repress your anger.
ZAngry people will also get punished, though they may not get punished as much for their physical tayva.
How about instead THEY move away from this sort of fundamentalist nonsense? It is in insult to Judaism, science, and common sense. It is, in fact, a conspiracy theory cast upon God. Moad Katan itself depicts “previous worlds.” There is no need for this sort of BULLSHIT.
If I really thought Judaism demanded that I believe this sort of thing, I would drop it.
If “Gedolim” keep inisting on it, some will do just that, or decline to embrace it in the first place.
to your response :
your use of the word ” fundamental” is merely gratuitous and irrelevant to the discussion.
either it is a legimitmate position or not.
A long subject matter, but one comment will suffice for the moment:
The problem jews- even frum ones who accept the ani maamins and keep shobbes, is they arent goreis the part of Jewish philosophy that is thousands of years old ( and not made up in response to modern science) and an authentic and fundamental deah in Torah that G-d is hidden in the universe. It has been understood that Hashem certainly has deliberately planted false information in the world.
* For gosh sakes, if someone cut down a tree in Adams time it showed rings according to thousands of years of Torah ideology which had no problem with this even though they knew that rings took time to develop.
The whole of Adam was a deceptive appearance, as he was an adult on his first day in the world according to Torah thought. So the idea that Torah thought didnt believe that God has things not look as they are to the eye is very acceptable to the thousands of years of Torah deos.
Another one before we get to he number 1 greatest example of this:
* God having a river running thru a canyon which for thousands of years man saw created widening rivers or canyons- this clearly appears to have caused mature canyons- this is all misleading evidence
* And ultimately, the biggest misleading evidence of all , which is clearly our hashkafa- The world looks like it runs like a machine by itself without moment to moment guidance by the Creator- that is misleading evidence!
This MEANS THE UNIVERSE IS SHOT THru WITH FALSE EVIDENCE, [ THOUGH GOD IN THE END TELLS US THE TRUTH.]
Ultimately there IS NO deception since Hashem REVEALED the truth to us ( according to the thousands of year old Traditional Deos)
It only looks “deceptive” because you expect the truth to be visible only from your observations of the physical world. But the Torah never expected that. The torah never tells us to expect that.
Furthermore, the idea that the physical world is specifically designed to give a false impression is found in Rav Dessler [Nes vTeva], and he can hardly be accused of adopting Christian theology.
I don’t understand why you would want to go the route of “deception” when you have Moad Katan explicitly saying there were “previous worlds.”
Why demand that people discard physical evidence when it can be proven no problem? Why are you picking a fight with the dinosaurs when you don’t have to?
now you are on a completely different issue.
let’s get this straight- the previous answer that was given is completely consistent with Torah deos that were not created by rabbis in the year 2005.
as for why these rabbis- i dont even know which they are?
the issue is whether the dating is misleading- i dont know anyone who Maintains ( with a capital M) that they didnt exist. I DO know that various ones have posited that they dont have to have existed.
But ultimately that is a different issue.
Your issue is a specific one- why not say that they are from the different world nand that the material in this world is from a previous one from prior to 6000 years ago.
That is a wonderful question which I have heard explanations for but dont remember the details because the issue is marginal.
The question is why maintain that the material in the ground isnt from the previous worlds. The answers given would be based on analysis of the whole comprehensive mesorah which for these sages precludes that the physical material of this world contains material from these previous worlds- you have to ask a master in Shas as to his cheshbon- fabulous question, but one that any sage - if any sage does maintain this point- would answer without taking a moment to think
Now your second question - another great question- however the answer is partially found in my prior response.
you said: “Why demand that people discard physical evidence when it can be proven no problem? ”
The answer is along the lines of that the cheshbon used by all sages- not just the ones who have it “out” for the dinosaurs in the year 2005- ( if there are any, i still dont know if there are any who Maintain this) - all the sages do not credit physical interpretations of science as trumping a psotion in the mesorah that comes internally from the torah. Again , as i said above,
you expect the truth to be visible only from your observations of the physical world. But the Torah never expected that. The torah never tells us to expect that. So if we have a position that is bonifide- i.e. internal to the Mesorah- then we dont cast it off on account of the idea that all truth is discernable from the physical world.
Even Rav Belsky and Rav Shmuel K hold that, even if they have their reasons for excepting the dinosaurs as applying to moed katan- WHICH I DONT KNOW IS THEIR PARTICULAR position ( again, even their position would never MAINTAIN that position, but ALLOW for the position of moed katan that you suggested above)
When you demand that your adherents and potential adherents look at science as an illusion, you are making a leap of faith exceptionally large. It is one thing to say life is more than the physical world; it is quite another to say it is essentialy forged. There are other religions that make such a claim, and it narrows the competitive advantage of Judaism.
Rabbi Feldman appears to be doing that, and this is disturbing since he is the Rosh Yeshiva of Ner Israel, not usually considered a bastion of the far right.
your phraseology
” look at science as an illusion”
is just not complete enough to comment upon.
So the following are comments, not a response to what you said since I dont understand the vague phrase you wrote.
i will simply make these comments.
The majority of gedolim who do not maintain what Rav Belsky and Rav Shmuel K may ( or may not ) maintain, are not denying what they see- if they did, they wouldnt say, where they do say so, ” nishtana teva” - they would then just say the teva is the same and we are witnessing an illusion. No one says that- therefore they dont maintain that what we witness is an illussion
- Another comment: The scientifc method can only bring us to the truth about things [1] that came about naturalistically and NOT miraculously and [2] that the scientists are in possession of the all the data about and [3] that are not being misinterpreted- mistakes are something that is the casue for why science changes every 2- 300 years.
The scientific method must by definition fail when something is being observed and analysed as if it came about naturallitically when REALLY it came about through a miracle, or if the data is not yet all in, or when there is misinterpretation. THAT IS NOT SAYING “” look at science as an illusion”
No godol says that the stars arent millions of years away and that there is naturalistic way we know of that can account for our seeing its light- no one maintains that- therefore no one maintains “” look at science as an illusion” except in the sense that, as said earlier, ” you expect the truth to be visible only from your observations of the physical world. But the Torah never expected that. The torah never tells us to expect that” - the torah tells us to expect that miraculous events will throw off our expectation of a completely naturalistic world.
Ok, first, when did the Torah say to jettison your Mind?
How do you know what it says in the Torah? How do you know what the Mesorah is?
We SEE it and use our mind to figure out what it means. We HEAR the discussions and engage our mind in the ideas.
So now you want us to not use that process? We SEE rocks and strata of different types of rocks and we see bones in certain strata. We use our mind to figure out what happened.
So why should I throw one out for the other?
Two other points:
First, You are right to say that Hashem could have put the bones there intentionally. He could have, but the question is then why? What was the purpose? Is that Chasdai Hashem to create false data? Is that Hashem’s greatness that he can create misleading evidence? It goes against any idea of mercy and looks like a great joke, Chas V’shalom.
Second, the Torah is not a Science Textbook - it is a book of Human Perfection (i.e. Krivus L’Hashem). There are no cures for diseases, no instructions on how to perform Heart surgery, and there are no explanations of any of the Sciences. Yes, the world exists only throught the Ratzon HaShem, but only a fool and a simpleton would say that means there are no rules and reasons to how the world works. Even within Judaism there are rules and reasons - Halacha is not arbitrary nor without logic.
So this leaves us with the question - what is the problem with Evolution?
Anyone?????
Yaakov,
You wrote,
[1] that came about naturalistically and NOT miraculously and [2] that the scientists are in possession of the all the data about and [3] that are not being misinterpreted- mistakes are something that is the casue for why science changes every 2- 300 years.
I don’t see number 1 as contradictory. Something can be miraculous, and yet there can be a “teva” process as to how it came into being.
Number 3 is correct, which is why maybe it would have been better for the Talmud itself not to bring its own medical science of the day down as if it was Torah itself.
Which it did. And even the most religious Jews acknowledge the difference when you don’t follow its advice. Yes, they claim something changed, but it probably didn’t, that’s just the excuse.
And yes, I have trouble accepting a literal explanation that Joshua made the sun stand still, or that the Amalekites turned themselves into sheep.
Joe,
I just don’t understand the motive either.
A frum girl I know told me she had no problem believing that it was possible God created dinosaur bones, but when I told her the Moad Katan sugia, she was happy. Why? So she wouldn’t have to try to believe there weren’t dinosaurs.
You gotta love that response. If only the referees of anthropology and biology journals would take this advice, the messiah would come by Tuesday.
Abu - I thought about responding to that piece of drivel you quote, but thought better of it. I mean, what do you say to someone who says that any discussion of an idea where you disagree with the other side is really Loshon Hara?
Regarding “Joe”
If this is the Jo that loves decaf coffee then i will have mercy on him in a public forum. If you are not that Jo, then my answer IS THE SAME
[ thats an inside joke]
Joe wrote: Ok, first, when did the Torah say to jettison your Mind? ”
So i wont respond to that because it is too vague a remark given the fact that within my prior remarks contain an answer to his charge: the answer is, ” the torah never asked us to jettison our minds…THEN GO BACK AND REREAD WHAT I WROTE.
Now regarding what Jo wrote here:
“How do you know what it says in the Torah? How do you know what the Mesorah is? ”
I wont bother to comment on this latter quote, all i will say is that one has to understand what the person he is engaging IN CONVERSATION WITH previously said, and then - and only then- is he entitled to ask a POINTED question about what I said. but since you arent commenting on what i said, and just throwing out a remark, i wont comment
I WILL comment on this part of the quote of Jo: “So now you want us to not use that process? We SEE rocks and strata of different types of rocks and we see bones in certain strata. We use our mind to figure out what happened. So why should I throw one out for the other? ”
Jo, that is a pointed question if i understand correclty so i will comment: if what you mean by the word “other” is ” the torah position according to the contemporary sages around whom this subject matter rages” well then that is a subject matter that is long and not suited for this forum due to length. So i will just make a comment or two.
The answer to your question is really the heart of the matter: your question really contains a string of questions like:
1- why should i accept that the torah is true?
2- why should i accept the authority of sages in general.
The answer to question 2 is that the torah says to follow them. That’s the easy question.
The first question is the IKUR question of all qustions we could ask.
HOW DO I KNOW THE TORAH IS TRUE??? BECAUSE IF THE TORAH IS NOT TRUE THEN EVEN IF THE TORAH IS ALWAYS IN SYNC WITH SCIENCE, I STILL DONT CARE ABOUT THE TORAH BECAUSE IT ISNT TRUE- because THE FACT THAT SOMETHING IS INTERNALLY LOGICAL DOESNT MEAN IT IS TRUE.
AND IF THE TORAH IS TRUE, THEN IN THOSE PARTICULAR SITUATIONS WHERE THE TORAH INDICATES THAT MY OBSERVATION OF THE PHYSICAL WORLD IS MISLEADING, THEN I WOULD GO WITH THE TORAH BECAUSE THE TORAH IS TRUE and i wouldnt have a problem.
Where frum jews who believe in the miracles publicised by the bible- like in the midbar etc…- where they get snafued is here: they often have problems not with publicised miracles i nthe bible, but with the concept of ongoing contradictions to the scientific method that remainin the universe– it drives some frum jews crazy!!!
but if the torah does in fact provide for this reality of there being things i nthe world that aren’t naturalistic explained, then and only then can a person und
this is another example of not commenting on what the person said.
no one suggested not to discuss the issues of whether the torah position is that there were dinosaurs millions of years ago. The argument against slandering talmidei chachamim is the that the gedolim are being slandered by slander- and being derogatroy- as opposed to a disucssion of the issues
talking about the gedolim like their heads are in the sand, is slander. and that shouldnt be done and Mr. kelsey should remove those comments from his site
finshing] understand the torah deos
this was cut oiff my previous response…
but if the torah does in fact provide for this reality of there being things i nthe world that aren’t naturalistic explained, then and only then can a person understand the torah’s deos
THE QUESTION IS SIMPLY, IS THE TORAH IN FACT TRUE?
THE ANSWER IS THAT YOU WOULD NEED TO ACCESS WHETHER IT IS TRUE. I CAN OFFER A STARTING POINT, BUT THIS IS SIMPLY MY OFFER TO YOU.
GO TO DOVIDGOTTLIEB.COM - THEN GO TO THE AUDIO SECTION. THEN DOWNLOAD FOR FREE THE FIRST 4 AUDIOS CALLED
” VERIFICATION OF THE WRITTEN TORAH”, AND THEN LISTEN TO THEM.
THEN READ THE PUBLICATION ON THE SAME SITE CALLED ” LIVING UP TO THE TRUTH” ( about 80 printed pages) - then click the “comments” section on the homepage and read the first essay entitled ” The Kuzari Principle (Revelation at Sinai) - Introduction
on second thought, read this first, then listen to the audios, then read the 80 page ” living up to the truth”
AND THAT IS HOW I WOULD ADVISE YOU TO BEGIN WITH.
tHEN JO WRITES: “First, You are right to say that Hashem could have put the bones there intentionally. He could have, but the question is then why? What was the purpose?”
so i advise you to read on that website - click the comments ection again and then go down about 8 lines to the link entitled
“The Age of The Universe”
then continue below….
SO VERY QUICKLY,: IT DOESNT MATTER IF HASHEM GIVES US A REASON, AND IT CERTAINLY DOESNT MATTER IF WE CANT FIGURE OUT THE REASON. THE IDEA THAT WE SHOULD BE AWARE OF GODS PSYCHOLOGY IS A PRETTY ODD IDEA from a logical standpoint. AND IF YOU WANT TO DISCUSS HASDEI HASHEM, LETS GO ALL OUT AND DISCUSS THE HOLOCAUST AND PAIN AND SUFFERING IN GENERAL- NOT THIS ISSUE
SECONDLY, WITH REGARD TO “WHY” DID GOD MISLEAD US IN THE PHYSICAL WORLD [ ALTHOUGH HE DOESNT MISLEAD US IN HIS TORAH] IT IS NOT A QUESTION WE NEED TO ANSWER IN THE FIRST PLACE. DO WE REALLY NEED TO ANSWER THAT QUESTION TO BELIEVE IN TORAH??
IF THE TORAH IS TRUE, I DONT NEED TO ANSWER THE QUESTION, AND IF THE TORAH IS NOT TRUE THEN I CERTAINLY DONT NEED OT ANSWER THE QUESTION, and i am certainly not going to come to believe in the torah if i do have an answer to the question!!!
BUT ACTUALLY, TO GO INTO THIS, HOW DO I KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT GOD? WELL CERTAINLY I CANT GUESS GODS PSYCHOLOGY? SO THE ONLY WAY I KNOW ABOUT GOD IS IF HE REVEALS IT TO US.
NOW, IN FACT WE ARE GIVEN SOME OF WHAT IS THE EFFECT [ THE REAL WORKING DEFINITION OF THE TERM "TAAMEI MITZVOS" IS " THE EFFECT OF THE MITSVOS IN OUR WORLD"]
SO IN THIS ISSUE, THERE IS MUCH DISCUSSION ABOUT FREE WILL. READ RAV DESSLER AS CITED ABOVE ETC…
NOW IN GENERAL, TORAH DEOS EXPLAINS TO US THAT WE ARE TO USE THE TORAH TO COME TO THE TRUTH. ANOTHER DEAH IS THAT hASHEM SET UP THE WORLD TO GENERALLY RUN IN A WAY WHERE GODS PRESCENCE DOESNT OVERWHELM US AND ELIMINATE FREE WILL. AND THIS IS DISCUSSED AT GREAT LENGTH IN THE SOURCES, AND ONCE AGAIN DO
david kelsey writes
“And yes, I have trouble accepting a literal explanation that Joshua made the sun stand still, or that the Amalekites turned themselves into sheep”
as said before, there is no reason to believe joshua did a miracle if you dont believe the torah is true, and certainly if you believe thetorah is true then there is no reason not to believe joshua did a miracle.
it is hard to understand why you would have bothered writing this
Yaakov,
There have been no open miracles in a long time. Things operate more on a Tevah basis. You want us to accept Tevah as an illusion.
I heard Rabbi Dovid Gottlieb was forced to take off his essay with an understanding of evolution, a confluence, if you will.
Why was that, Yaakov?
you keep repeating yourself-
“There have been no open miracles in a long time. Things operate more on a Tevah basis. You want us to accept Tevah as an illusion. ”
the material i wrote ( except for the garbled part as i mentioned above) answers what you are repeating again and again and shows what you are saying has no basis in their opinion except as far as I have explained. Your problem is with mainstream torah deos, not a particular group
And its OK if you have a problem with the torah- but its not ok to ignore whats been said
as for R Dovid Gottlieb- you havent a clue as to his feelings or thoughts under which he removed it
however he made many comments on this issue
one was ” the overwhelming majority of gedolim hold…..” and so you do what they say because they are the only authorities
he is fine with this- there is nothing insidious in this-
and even he would say that he would do what his rebbe muvhak said to do even against the majority , but he wouldnt say ” The others are wrong”
but you have crafted a “take” on R Gottlieb from thin air
I have the original one- he took off one of the two explanations
he left his second explanation which you can read today on his website
and he didnt go anywhere near where R Slifkin did in the original one, and frankly, it seems that even his original one fits with one of the ones that was in R Feldmans essay ( i think if i recall correctly it was the leshem)
But it smacked of the whole argument so i guess instead of tweaking he simply took it off- we dont know the cheshbon
but it isnt off the audio one and you can still hear the orginal on the audio one of the age of the universe
the point i am getting though- you dont really comment on what I have said, you keep going on with what you first said.
My sound card on my computer doesn’t work. R. Gottlieb is Chassidic, I am sure he would do whatever his Rebbe asked. That means very little to me in this context, quite frankly.
I just don’t understand how a “new earth” idea is Torah in the first place. What am I missing? You keep taking me to how Blackhat scholars can elect to differ from science, and not why they would want to in the first place. I am not a philosopher, I am a history student. These bones are documents of the highest order. You want to say they don’t mean what they must mean. I don’t care about the underlying philosophy as to how this could be good for Man’s Free will. I am asking you why you won’t take documents seriously. You are insisting this is some sort of religious tenant. Where!!!!!????
Please don’t give me philosophy.
There are bones. There were dinosaurs.
What’s the problem?
Yaakov,
Those who claim in the name of the Torah that there were no dinosaurs had better be right. Otherwise, if there were dinosaurs, and God put them there as dinosaurs, and we’re supposed to know that because of Moad Katan, it’s a major, major Chillul Hashem. You and others needlessly made Torah Judaism look Anti-Intellectual, and attmepted put us in a position to pick one or the other.
Needlessly.
okay boys,
I say let the bones rest in peace. Vayter.
ok look you got to be writing these inane repsosnes that dont remark on what i say only so that your web site optimization goes up up up.
otherwsie you would respond to what i say instead of just restating what you said on the home page of your blog. i know a freind of yours and he agrees with me 100%- you are like hannity and limbaugh- ignore 1/2 the data and ignore what the guy is saying, and just repeat your talking points.
all has been said and justofoed above
david, you dont believe itneh torah- the beginning of the discussion is whether the torah is true or not. the discussion cant start with” dinosaurs”
if you dont understand relativity then you cant argue against or for quantum mechanics, and you cant argue if you einstein or bohr was right.
the conversation is inane- you must start with whether the torah is true or not, and you obviously dont hold the torah is true. So that’s a big problem that you have- a big personal problem that you have. And it wont be solved in this blog. dont hide bwehind dinosaurs when you dont even accept tporah misinai.
You are being insulting at this point, Yaakov. Who is this secret “friend” of mine?
I don’t know what my position is on the Torah, Yakov.
I know what it is on dinosaurs, though.
Yakov - not sure what you are trying to say in response to my post. I thought it was pretty straight forward, but I will be Dan L’Kaf Zechus and try to explain it to you again.
First, some background: I am observant and believe in the Ani Ma’amins and all that they entail (i.e. Torah Min HaShamayim, Moshe was the Av Nevi’im, etc).
Now, my point was simply this: we rely on our senses and our mind to ‘know’ things. You have to use the same process (i.e. your senses and mind - lets say for the sake of this discussion we call it “investigation”) in all endeavors.
Either we Know the Torah is true, or we “Believe” it is true. I am of the opinion that we must Know the Torah is true - i.e. I have to “investigate” the Torah and thus find that it is, indeed, True. (Mishnah Torah, Sefer HaMa’ada, Hilchot Yesodei HaTorah, Perek Alef, Halacha Vav: Mitzvah LDaat).
Now comes along Science, which is an “investigation” as well. I Know certain things about the world around me through this investigation.
When a contradiction arises between these two bodies of Knowledge that I Know, such as supposedly (and I stress SUPPOSEDLY) is happening with Evolution and Dinosaurs and the Torah, then I have to figure out a solution.
There are three solutions: Throw out one body of knowledge (Torah), throw out the other body of knowledge (Science), or find an explanation.
The discussion above, the IKUR of it, is that Rabbonim today are choosing the second option - they throw out Science. There are many, many problems with this approach, among which are it makes the Rabbonim look like fools and simpletons (how can they contradict Science, which has demonstrated its value over and over again - cars, airplanes, heart surgery, etc???), and the reasoning they give (and that you seem to be giving, though you are not clear on this) goes along the lines of “I believe Torah to be True, so I will ignore everything that is not Torah.” without giving any reason beyond that “Belief” that Torah is True. (and this is what I am referring to when I ask when did the Torah say to jettison your Mind?)
I am trying to point out the third option, that of finding an explanation. I suggested a couple that Torah is not a Science book and therefore should be authoritative only when it comes to Shlamus HaAdam and not when it speaks about things Scientific. Rabbi Slifkin (the one who has been banned and ex-communicated by all of our Gedolim) has put forward other possible solutions, for which he has been banned and ex-communicated. Then there is the idea that Kelsey has been discussing, that there are Chazal that indicate there is room for the idea of Evolution itself in the Mesorah.
On to Hashems psychology rachmana Ltzlan! We cannot know anything about God as you should know. Far be it from trying to figure out what his intentions are. I am merely pointing out that we have certain principles, such as Mah Hu Af Atah H
(post was cut off - here is the remainder)
On to Hashems psychology rachmana Ltzlan! We cannot know anything about God as you should know. Far be it from trying to figure out what his intentions are. I am merely pointing out that we have certain principles, such as Mah Hu Af Atah How He acts, you should act, which show us that Hashem, in how he relates to us, is constantly teaching us how we should be. Thus, when Hashem reflects on the destruction of Sdom VAmorah and asks rhetorically if He should hide His actions from Avraham, we should not, Chas Vshalom, think that this is what is going on in Hashems mind, Lhavdil, but that we should learn from this certain ideas of Chesed and Emes.
Your question about the Holocaust is a non-question. We just read about the Haftachos if we keep the Mitzvos we will be fine, if we dont we will have all manner of Horror visited on us as a nation. As for all of the Frummeh Yidden who were killed, I will refer you right back to Hashems discussion with Avraham about Sdom VAmorah that Avraham asks if Hashem would destroy a Tzadik with the Rasha. The answer seems to be there are cases where Hashems Din is just that.
So I will ask the question again what would planting false information teach us? We are constantly reminded to be truthful and honest and present all facts as they are. And, in the conception that Hashem put the bones there intentionally, we see just the opposite falsehood, dishonesty and distorted facts.
Good Shabbos
David wrote: On to Hashems psychology rachmana Ltzlan! We cannot know anything about God as you should know.
Yak responds: I said that - I dont understand why you are saying I said the OPPOSITE OF WHAT I PRECISELY SAID ABOVE.
i CANNOT UNDERSTAND YOUR HOLOCAUST REFERENCE SO I WONT BE ALE TO COMMENT
David wrote:
“So I will ask the question again what would planting false information teach us? We are constantly reminded to be truthful and honest and present all facts as they are. And, in the conception that Hashem put the bones there intentionally, we see just the opposite falsehood, dishonesty and distorted facts.”
Yak responds: We’ve once again come full circle and are repeating ourselves- except that you are not responding to what I have written-you for the umpteenth time are simply repeating yourself.
But i will again reference what i referenced multiple times above.
The dinosaur issue is not the most fundamental issue- its a detail in the comprehensive issue which is:
Hashem created a world that hides his presence, and as to how that fits into His scheme of things, as referenced above, the point ( there are more than just one point to be made on this hiding) is that he hides in the world and requires we find him, primarily through following the Torah- , and a econd point on the issue, this hiding serves to balance bechirah. But again, the appropriate direction to take is to either study all the sources, or, as i suggested, to listen to a most eloquent eluciadator of the sources , Dovidgottlieb.com , go to audio section, and , on this topic, i suggest the following titles:
1- The Purpose of Creation (download
2- Free Will
3- Free Will - Philosophical Problems
4- Free Will - Philosophical Problems Q’s & A’s
5- Free Will - Religious Problems -6- Free Will - Religious Problems Q’s & A’s #5
7- The Limits of Logic
8- Misunderstandings
9- Child Sacrifice
10-The purpose of Creation ( may be a repeat)
Yaakov,
1) You are not distinguishing between Joe and myself.
2) The dinosaur is not a detail. It is a dinosaur. The lens you are talking about is unacceptable to me. It’s all or nothing for you. You want (sprise, suprise) to make it a black and white issue. If my declining to give you and yours a blank check makes me a heretic, so be it. There is a difference between “deos” and the Torah itself, though.
Not everything is halacha l’moshe b’sinai.
A lot less than we (you) pretend, don’t you think?
Yaakov,
You are comparing a subjective call (the question of “evil”), to a fact (dinsaurs) and insisting they are the same question or not a question.
One is a thing, one is a judgement call. They are not the same.
Joe,
How you like this guy? See, no answers can be given, at least none we dare to write down and incur the wrath of “the majority of g’deolim .”
Rather, we need a ten part series to explain why dinosaurs probably never existed, because it helps free will, and everyone should hear this 10 part series which is such a big sod it can’t be written down.
you’re still responding to points you make by creating paper tigers and red herrings and attributing them to me.
and then every once and a while you make a general “quip” response- its so general that the words you’re using aren’t specific enough to respond to , or i would just repeat whats already been said- you need to attack what i have said
like this one
DK: “You are comparing a subjective call (the question of “evil”), to a fact (dinsaurs) and insisting they are the same question or not a question.”
firstly, YOU NEED TO GO INTO DETAIL IF YOU WANT a response because your comment is just too vague
secondly, “dinosaurs are a fact”- well, i hate to break the bubble you securely use as your alternative to a lifelong hereoin high, but that phrase is just too generic to discuss
there are bones in the ground with a radioactive decay that shows they are millions of years old if everything in the universe is uniform and all theories about an expanding universe are correct.
that is far from telling me anything about a world in which there are miracles.
again, for the 90th time- if the torah is true, then the biggest misleading evidence is that the world runs like a machine with no interference on a moment to moment basis from hashem.
if the torah is not true, or if i believed it, then i wouldn’t argue a detail about the false ideas of the physical universe surrounding a Torah position ondinosaurs- ratherm i would harp on the position that the evidence goes against the torah is true
so the way i would do that would be to explain that it is nonsense that there are miracles and nonsense that a god runs the world on a moment to moment basis- go fort he jugular, not a fingernail.
but i suspect you dont go for the jugular on account of neurotic reasons centering around your nonbelief in the torah
Gut Shobbes ( if applicable)
Someone help me. What I am I missing here? Why can’t he just say there were dinosaurs? Why constantly the throwback to if the Torah is or isn’t true?
The Huntshtupper Rebbe told me at his tisch that the round earth is an optical illusion, as the Torah clearly refers to an earth with 4 corners.
Kelsey, what we are missing here is that this guy Yaakov has certain beliefs:
a) there is no cause and effect.
b) Torah is the ONLY truth
c) all else is commentary
We can discuss and argue until we turn blue and nothing will come of it.
He doesn’t seem to be able to follow a thread of reasoning or logic. He seems to think we are one and the same person (which is odd, since I started off my last post by stating that I am Observant and he keeps questioning the observance issue). He is vague, and then accuses us of being vague (even when we go point for point with his posts). I say write him off. Sadly, just because a guy can type doesn’t mean he has anything to say.
Someone help me. What I am I missing here? Why can’t he just say there were dinosaurs? Why constantly the throwback to if the Torah is or isn’t true?
David Kelsey | Homepage | 09.30.05 - 12:42 pm | #
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some one help me- why is he asking why i cant say there were dinosaurs when we weren’t analyzing if there were dinosaurs.
David said there were gedolim who maintain there were no dinosaurs. i have yet to hear the name of one that maintains that. then, once i do hear the name i need ot hear why he maintains that?
DK doesnt have a clue as to why that [?] rabbi maintains there were never any dinosaurs.
secondly, another gadol might maintain therewere dinosaurs and they were created within the six days and the appearance of age is deceptive for a dozen possible reasons . some of the reasons may have to do with, as mentioned ad nauseum before, on account of a lack of complete data. other reasons may hinge on the notion that when miracles enter the picture then all notions of being precise in applying the scientifc method to parts of our analysis of the physical world may go out the window ( because the rings in a tree are deceptive if the tree was created mature)
similarly, the age of adinosaur may be misleading if using naturalistic methods if the methods arent
” reading” the physical universe ” calibrated” for a miracle
I’ve lost count- have i said this 18 times or 19 times
The Huntshtupper Rebbe told me at his tisch that the round earth is an optical illusion, as the Torah clearly refers to an earth with 4 corners.
Abu Gingy | Homepage | 09.30.05 - 12:58 pm | #
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joking aside
Rav Elyashiv has no beef with naturalistic observation.
the question is as mentioned a hndred times above, that when it comes to intepretation of the physical world about prior events, do we have all the data ( as scientists thought they had until 200 years later everything was scrapped) or is there a compent to the physical world that throws conclusions about prior events out the window on account of the scientific method not being able to pick up on a miracle
[ as we've said 45,000 times above]
Someone help me. What I am I missing here? Why can’t he just say there were dinosaurs? Why constantly the throwback to if the Torah is or isn’t true?
David Kelsey | Homepage | 09.30.05 - 12:42 pm | #
Yak says: Simply- if the torah is true then Hashem can plant dinosaurs in the earth just like he can fake making the world look like its running on its own with no input on a moment to moment basis from the creator- as i’ve said now 98,000 times
[ Max help me pleaee]
the intelecutal and practical question is, not whether he did this- the conversation is completely unimportant as discussed above at great length.
the important question is whether there is a hashem who performed open mircals for he jews for 40 years and gave a revelation as the jews say he did, which therefore obligates us to do things that, i can tell from this website, are not on the list containing the top ten things the blogger wants to do with his life
if truth matters, then you make an appointment with dovid gottlieb after reading his text and listening to the audios, and then ask follow up questions.
That’s what you do…if you care.
If you dont care, then you go on with lifelong diversions from the resposilbility of being resposible.
Our goal is to avoid this falling out with the Father
Nobody was ever hurt by trusting the gedolim on issues like the existence of dinosaurs. Those, however, who trusted da’as Torah on important things — such as when to get the hell out of Europe — paid a rather high price for trusting in self-appointed seers.
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