Dumped! Jewschool Kicks Jewlicious to the Curb.

by DK

59 comments

1 grand muffti { 10.19.05 at 3:52 pm }

Aww, c’mon Kelsey. Haven’t y’ever had a girlfriend? A year long relationship is always followed up by break up sex.

2 David Kelsey { 10.19.05 at 5:58 pm }

Mufti,

It is bad for business to partner with a site that repeatedly calls you “anti-semitic, anti-Israel,” and flat our calls us nazis.

And even if not everyone agrees on your team to all of those slurs (great),it is telling, as is the fact that from the top of your organization, this name-calling has been defended as somehow constructive and acceptable.

I don’t see that Jewlicious is interested in an exchange of ideas, but rather contrasting positions, frequently straw man ones.

For Jewschool, that is particularly corrosive, as it seeks more to discuss ideas, not just state positions. Jewschool doesn’t need to go far to find people willing to call us names, and Jewschool doesn’t need to provide a custom platform for those interested in doing so, in order to demonstrate (to potential donors, perhaps?)how much closer they are to the mainstream Jewish organizational community.

3 David Kelsey { 10.19.05 at 5:59 pm }

Better we remian “just friends.”

4 The Town Crier { 10.20.05 at 9:32 pm }

you guys have had a pole up your rumpuses from day one.

5 The Town Crier { 10.20.05 at 9:32 pm }

the jewlicious ppl that is

6 David Kelsey { 10.20.05 at 9:49 pm }

TC,

I was wondering what your take was.

Best,

DK

7 ck { 10.20.05 at 10:33 pm }

While you’re sitting there all smug and stuff, do any of you happen to know what’s going on with dan? All his sites are down and we’re all kind of worried. For real. Pole up our asses and all.

8 ck { 10.20.05 at 10:38 pm }

if any of y’all hear anything, please call me at 213 576 2870. thanks.

9 ck { 10.20.05 at 10:50 pm }

doh. I meant 213 276 2870

10 ck { 10.20.05 at 10:50 pm }

doh. I meant 213 276 2870

11 David Kelsey { 10.20.05 at 11:00 pm }

ck,

I’m sure he’s fine. Try not to let your understandable guilt magnifiy what is almost surely a technical situation.

DK

12 ck { 10.21.05 at 1:38 am }

Some people are really beneath contempt. But, allow me to be kind for a moment. On the off chance that the bile that rages within your bosom keeps you awake at night contemplating all sorts of nefarious plots being waged against you, hear this. At Jewlicious, we have taken the piss out of pretty much every major donor organization. We have ragged on Edgar Bronfman and poked fun at Michael Steinhardt. It’s extremely unlikely that anyone will give us any money and we have never asked for communal funds nor do we have any plans to do so. We do what we do for little or no compensation and we do it for kicks and out of a sense of duty. There’s no money in that and frankly, if we were beholden to someone else’s agenda, it wouldn’t be fun anymore. So you can put that “potential donor” canard to bed. We are all also gainfully employed and have no interest in a career in Jewish journalism - except for Esther who already had one before she graced our worthless asses with her presence.

I am sorry that you are so cynical as to believe that we are motivated by guilt and not sincere, well founded concern. You obviously don’t have the same history with Dan that some of us do. I hope that all is well with him and that his technical issues are resolved quickly.

13 ck { 10.21.05 at 1:39 am }

Oh, full disclosure time. Despite what I have just said, we’d still LOVE to be invited to Reboot in Utah and chill with Mireille Silcoff. That would be so awesome!

14 David { 10.21.05 at 7:27 am }

ck,

How come all the concern over the school-licious break up came solely from Jewlicious? Where is the outpouring of love and conviction that the relationship was a valuable one from the contributers of the website you claim you have treated so well?

Loved Laya’s reason why the breakup is is a bad thing - no more free technical help.

Btw - Nice try with the speculative motzei shame rah as to why the site was down for a few hours. Tell The Middle he can sleep soundly now, his dear friend Dan is just fine, so he should save his energy for another mind blowing article on how Hamas is gasp a terorist organization. And after that, he can copy an actually funny picture from Grandmufti with a redundant and lame-ass one of his own. At least for two minutes before you guys “edit” it.

15 ck { 10.21.05 at 10:31 am }

Dan’s sensitive. We never really meant to hurt him to the point that he’d go ballistic and tell me to go to hell and call us brownshirts. We’re just boys. Boys kick the shit out of each other in the field and then afterwards drink beers together. We thought the rules of engagement were clear. But apparently that wasn’t the case. If Dan would simply have told me that he felt hurt, I would have told everyone to cut it out. I mean the last time we chatted and he walked me through his future plans for Jewschool, even inviting Jewlicious to participate, it wasn’t an issue. It was chill and everything was fine.

We’re really not bad people and while we fiercely disagree with many of the things posted on Jewschool, we really can’t fault Dan for his energy, dedication and good intentions. The RSS thing was symbolic. Honestly we don’t need the traffic. The removal of the feeds and the links have oddly enough NOT AFFECTED OUR TRAFFIC IN THE LEAST. But the fact remains, Jewlicious has been the #1 source of referers to Jewschool over the past year.

But whatever. Motzei shem rah, sheesh, you seem to find something bad in everything. Whatever. I have to pick up my brownshirt from the cleaners.

16 laya { 10.21.05 at 10:44 am }

kelsey, don’t drag me into this. Dan and I have a casual friendship here, and I don’t play the way you boys do. It’s insulting for you to take something I wrote sincerely and twist it to be shallow.
Don’t.

17 David { 10.21.05 at 1:52 pm }

ck,

you didn’t answer my question.

18 grand muffti { 10.21.05 at 3:24 pm }

Kelsey, CK didn’t answer your question because it’s pretty stupid. Muffti and his gang should be asking you and your the question. Anyhow, as is well known in a breakup, the dumper typically is not the one showing the love.

Glad you found the pic humourous.

19 ck { 10.21.05 at 6:56 pm }

Look David, We really, truly don’t give a rat’s ass. You think we done you wrong? OK. Good for you. We’re not running a popularity contest. We’re not in competition with Jewschool for anything. I think we all agree that this public blow up of Dan’s is unfortunate because, observing the meltdown, we felt embarassed for him. I can say this here on your blog because pretty much no one reads it except for us and your people. Dan was advised by his “friends” that the association was bad, that it was detrimentally affecting Jewschool’s ability to progress and get funding and so y’all decided to end the association, limited as it was. That’s cool. But the way it was done, the language used - “bitches,” “brownshirts,” “go to hell” etc. is not going to win him any new friends amongst the donors you all so badly crave. No one in the community is going to help you build the online interactive equivalent of Heeb magazine with the sort of pedigree you’ve displayed. Let’s assume that we may possibly have been bad for Jewschool. But more dammage was done to Jewschool by this embarassing outburst. Those who advised Dan to end the association with us ought to also have advised him against making a spectacle of himself - even if he was 100% right. None of this affects us because we have no similar aspirations. We do not wish to be beholden to anyone for anything and so we will continue unfunded and undaunted. We wish you well. We still believe in dialogue, although for my part I will refrain from using mean words when disagreeing with Jewschool because y’all are so sensitive. My fellow posters will do whatever they like though they also seem to have decided not to follow suit and respond in kind with foul language and unfortunate brownshirt allusions (and really stupid graphics from chicken shit anons). So, I hope that answered your question.

20 David Kelsey { 10.21.05 at 8:11 pm }

ck,

no, you didn’t address it at all, but I guess you don’t want to.

It should be noted that Dan’s language was after he ended the partnership. Yours was during.

It was hardly rare, though I can’t give you an exact frequency. Perhaps TM could have one of his buddies tabulate how many times he used the world “nazi” and “stormfront” during his “dialogue?” It seems to only cost him a wink for such an audit.

Look. It isn’t about being hyper-sensitive. It is about expecting a modicum of derech eretz from your “partners” that you don’t expect from any ol’ Joe Schmoe.

You don’t seem to understand the difference, but in my limited experience in publishing and business, there is supposed to be one.

21 ck { 10.21.05 at 10:11 pm }

Fine. Again. You asked How come all the concern over the school-licious break up came solely from Jewlicious? and the answer to that is because y’all are drunk on the wine of self righteous indignation? I thought the rules of engagement were pretty clear. We are two Web sites with very different orientations. Our interaction has always been from the perspective of mostly opposing positions. Many of the things Dan and others at Jewschool have written are things that we find patently offensive. Consequently its only normal that we take y’all to task for that. That’s the way it had always been. Dan then wanted to exchange RSS feeds. I assumed it was in the interest of dialogue, allowing your visitors to be exposed to our shtick and vice versa. I had no idea it had anything to do with Ariela. In any case, that’s hardly what I would call a partnership - just a noble act of openess. We didn’t expect Jewschool to moderate themselves and we sure didn’t feel like we had to moderate ourselves. We continues to take the piss out of Jewschool when we felt it was warranted and never said boo when the piss was taken out of us. I also lent support to Jewschool, in the spirit of friendly rivalry, whenever I could. We’re not talking a ton of cash but $700 is still $700. No one’s ever given me that kind of cash. That can buy not one but 2 iPods!

What can I tell you? I played football and basketball in high school and while we’d kick our opponents asses on the field, we would always be chill and have fun with them afterwards. I assumed those were the rules of engagement because no one ever expressed serious reservations to me prior to this melt down.

So do you think this whole thing went down smooth as silk? That it was handled well and that your leader acquitted himself with dignity and aplomb? Is Jewschool now in a better position than it was before?

I don’t think so. As for us, all the criticism we’ve received is that we were too nice to you all. This may be true but it at least proves that we are capable of being nice.

But whatever, I have a life I need to get back to. Hope I amswered all your questions.

22 David Kelsey { 10.21.05 at 10:41 pm }

How did you know I was lactose intolerant?

Okay, ck. Veiter.

Have a good shabbos.

23 TM { 10.28.05 at 9:05 pm }

I had not idea I was being mentioned on your site. You were offended that I called you a moron, Kelsey? You were offended that I equated your comments with those of Neo-Nazis’?

Look what Google gave me in about 38 seconds of reading:

http://66.102.7.104/search?q=c.....#038;hl=en

Those guys on Stormfront sound like, uh, morons. Or is that brownshirts? Right, “Jew Tax” Kelsey?

The irony of all of this is not that Mobius took a hissy fit and that all the other Jewlicious posters were apologetic and tried to appease him. It’s not even that he attacked ck in personal and unconscionable terms. The irony is that you folks try to pretend that you were grievously offended by being compared to Stormfronters or fantatical pro-Palestinians. It’s as if your strong remarks on “Jew taxes” and the attacks on Israel as an “apartheid state” or the IDF as “war criminals” don’t reflect something disgusting; something that one would expect to see on hate sites and fanatical sites. It’s as if attacking AIPAC and the Jewish community’s support of Israel as anti-American isn’t precisely what one would see on these hate sites and sources.

Instead, you try to pass off the problem as being with those who tell you to your face that your words and ideas reflect those of people who openly hate Jews.

http://www.google.com/search?h.....er+jew+tax

http://www.google.com/search?h.....heid+state

http://www.google.com/search?q.....&sa=N

Sorry, not buying it.

24 David Kelsey { 10.28.05 at 10:37 pm }

Middle,

I am well aware of the fact that you truly consider myself and others on Jewschool to have the same opinions as neo-nazis. You proved it - the same subject matter came up on google. Your comprehensive 38 second investigation has been concluded in your favor.

While I may understand why some see some aspects of apartheid in Israel’s current situation, I am personally loathe to use that term, and have never hurled it, as the situation is nothing like that of South Africa, which gets everyone all too excited anyway, both on the left and the right. Addtionally, for the record, I consider DeKlerk a great man who had to make a terrible choice for his consituincy.

Oh, and where did I personally call the IDF blanketly “war criminals?” Would love that reference — seem to not be able to find it in my own records.

You are not interested in discourse, only contrasting your own positions, and use a gratuitous amount of name-calling and guilt by google-association to do so.

Even now you do the same thing.

It isn’t my fault that you are obviously a descendant of holocaust survivors on your Ashkenzai side. My anscestors were not the cause or allies of their suffering and persecution- and neither is their descendant who you incorribly and intentionally confuse for a nazi.

25 TM { 10.28.05 at 11:33 pm }

I am not interested in discourse with people who talk about Jews as a fifth column, or people who accuse Jews of conspiracies. That is correct. Otherwise, I’d spend my time debating with Stormfronters.

I also have no intention of being friendly and respectful toward people who sound like the people and sites who came up on those simple Google searches I provided. Sadly, the only difference between you and them is that you happen to be Jewish. So what? You sound no different and your attitudes reveal the same (ignorant) hostility.

As I wrote once to Esther when she asked me to be polite to you (as in, stop calling you a moron), there is no value in giving haters’ ideas legitimacy. What, I actually have to debate something absurd like a “Jew tax” conspiracy? You saw the quality of the people who do debate that pile of crap on Stormfront. Did that leave you impressed? I ask, because you’re in their camp.

As for your final remark, it clearly demonstrates the reason I have such little respect for your intellect or ability to look at a situation and understand it.

26 David Kelsey { 10.28.05 at 11:57 pm }

Oh, I think you respect my intelligence just find.

Take it easy, nazi hunter.

And CK and Mufti — no more BS how it was all a big joke, ok?

27 TM { 10.29.05 at 12:31 am }

Actually, Kelsey, to them it was a big joke. Hint: they’re adults, I’m an adult, Jewlicious has no rules and we post what we like. They may agree or disagree with what I write, but they have no say. It’s also not their business to protect or defend your ego.

Oh, and it’s funny you should think that calling someone a Nazi hunter is an insult. It goes a long way to making my point about you for me.

28 TM { 10.29.05 at 12:33 am }

PS, I just realized you might think that because I didn’t comment about your assertion about how I really feel about your intelligence, that you might the assertion is correct. It’s not. Remember how surprised I was when I learned you weren’t a 20 year old?

29 TM { 10.29.05 at 12:34 am }

The missing word is “believe.”

30 David Kelsey { 10.29.05 at 12:38 am }

It’s funny to call someone a nazi-hunter when his target is Jews who disagree with him on some things.

It is my business to protect all projects I am involved with from irresponsible partners.

I do the best I can.

Go back to your attic you anonymous nothing coward with NO BALLS.

You are an embarassment to the other contributers on Jewlicious. If they don’t see that, it’s their problem. That’s not my problem. Not anymore. For you are no longer a reflection of Jewschool.

31 TM { 10.29.05 at 11:23 am }

Do you think that by calling me names you offend me as I offend you when I call you a moron?

Anyhow…

My fellow contributors on Jewlicious are welcome to ask me to leave at any time - like anybody else who posts there, my ideas are out in plain view and I’m merely one of six.

But then again, there is nothing embarrassing about calling you on your hateful comments. Why should I treat someone who disparages Jews with respect? You mean that if you couch your bilious comments about Jews in polite language, then others should respond politely? It’s not your pseudo-polite posture that’s relevant, it’s your hateful ideas.

If anyone should be embarrassed, it’s you. You’ll notice you have no response to my little Google links up there, although they clearly demonstrate what I’ve been saying about you and some of your teammates all along.

Don’t worry, I expected no response because there is nothing you can say short of swallowing your pride and withdrawing months (years?) of idiotic comments and beliefs. Then again, you actually believe your own bile. Jew tax indeed.

As for Jewschool and reflections…I’m afraid your sage advice to Mobius may have encouraged the young man into a frenzy which he’ll eventually regret (if he’s not already doing so). My fellow posters obviously felt badly about the situation and attempted to help him avoid his anger and to make him feel better by expressing their fondness for him and his project.

I think under most circumstances, people in Mobius’s situation would have understood that it’s a bear hug and would have responded favorably. After all, 5 out 6 Jewlicious posters showed up to indicate to him that they like him and his site.

Sadly for him, he didn’t quite see this, perhaps because you were there with your ill-advised “wisdom” and recommended he take steps counter to good form - not to mention his personal interests and goals. Instead of understanding that the Jewlicious folks were expressing their heartfelt warmth, you apparently advised him that this was a show of weakness, shame and atonement, and that Jewlicious harms him.

Oops! The pattern you followed by providing this overview of the situation clearly resembles that which we see above with your idiotic comment about me and the Holocaust. What we see is that you are not very observant, nor too clever, and are often wrong.

I would guess that usually these miscalculations only affect you, but in this case you also affected your friend(s). I wrote a paragraph describing why, but I’ve decided to erase it because I do not wish to cause any more anxiety to your friend (does he even read this blog? Does anybody?). Just note that the opposite of what you thought about site traffic and sources is true.

Kind of, like, your take on the infamous “Jew tax.”

Bye Kelsey - don’t be too angry at other Jews this shabbat.

32 ck { 10.30.05 at 4:02 am }

Kelsey, Kelsey, Kelsey. When you promote ideas that are also promoted by racists, we’re allowed to call you on that. I don’t think anyone has ever said that you yourself are a goose-stepping, brown shirt wearing, swastika waving Nazi. Other people may do that, we really don’t. The gratuitous use of spurious nazi analogies is something that annoys the bejeezus out of me and if TM would have done that, I’d be all over him. All he did, was state fact. Some of your ideas would find a receptive audience amongst our friends at Stormfront. And don’t get all indignant. It’s a fact.

You stated “While I may understand why some see some aspects of apartheid in Israel’s current situation, I am personally loathe to use that term” That’s good! Cuz over at Jewschool, it often seems like a Zionism-is-Apartheid Party sometimes. However, since you and your buddies find it acceptable to hold me responsible not just for what our posters write, but also what our commentors write, I have no problem holding you responsible for mobius/john brown/asaf et al until such time as I see you address that in public - meaning, on a blog that more than 7 or so people read.

Kelsey wrote: “It is my business to protect all projects I am involved with from irresponsible partners.”

We were never your partners, got it? EVER. If you really want to protect your projects, stop your founders before they have a petulant frenzy in public. I sent 2 emails out to moby before he had his meltdown. He had every opportunity to keep it civil. Instead he came off looking like a total nutter. And that’s not just my opinion. Just sayin. You all really did yourselves a humungous disservice.

Now lets get on to the TM namecalling thing. I hope that I am not revealing too much by stating that he’s not a big guy. However, I can say unequivocally that he’s got you beat both physically and mentally and he has ENORMOUS balls. His desire to remain nameless and faceless is one that I stand by and respect. Jewlicious is not a monolith, and their are no rules, but I am certain we all respect each other. I stand by everything TM has ever said in the context of you and your ideas.

Shavuah Tov!

33 David { 10.30.05 at 8:05 am }

CK

You wrote,

“I don’t think anyone has ever said that you yourself are a goose-stepping, brown shirt wearing, swastika waving Nazi.”

Your contributer did just that, and repeatedly so. He compared me to the most famous holocaust denier alive, David Irving. So I guess you stand by that too. You did before as well.

See where that gets you.

You wrote,

“Now lets get on to the TM namecalling thing. I hope that I am not revealing too much by stating that he’s not a big guy. However, I can say unequivocally that he’s got you beat both physically and mentally and he has ENORMOUS balls”

No, he has none — that’s why he is anonymous. He is a soccer Dad, outgunned and outmanned. He should restrict himself to a center-right shabbat speech about the continued fall-out from the Gaza disengagement at his suburban traditional-egalitarian synagaogue which he surely attends before the English page announcement for the Aleinu. This is what he is capable of. Beyond that, it is time to resort to name calling, as all this dialogue stuff is too much for the simpleton. He simply doesn’t have the education for a more sophisticated “dialogue.”

You wrote,

“However, since you and your buddies find it acceptable to hold me responsible not just for what our posters write, but also what our commentors write, I have no problem holding you responsible for mobius/john brown/asaf et al until such time as I see you address that in public - meaning, on a blog that more than 7 or so people read.”

I am not the editor nor owner of Jewschool. You are both for Jewlicious. I have explicitly and continuosuly expressed my opionions and dissent from positions I do not hold by, and will continue to do so, though respectfully, something you guys just don’t get. You, however, have expressed your support of the most odious ideas, carte blanche. You are the editor and owner of Jewlicious. You are responsible for Jewlicious. I am only responsible for expressing my own opinions (and contrary ones)on Jewschool, as I am just a contributer. Stop pretending you can’t tell the difference, and stop pretending this is a joke.

You have noted that you stand my your writer who has compared me to David Irving, the most infamous holocaust denier alive.

I hear you loud and clear. Now hear me.

I went to yeshiva after public high school, where I was one of less than ten Jewish kids in the school, not the class. Yes, both my parents are Jewish.

I graduated from Yeshiva University. I come from a secular background, and this legacy has not been easy for me. I work at an Israeli corporation (the second one in a row) and I work for a Jewish magazine. I taught Chumash to Reform kids, and English as a second language to Chassidic children. I worked for years (part-time) as a whole-salesman at the last knishery in Manhattan, in hopes of aiding and expanding this precious icon of the Yiddish private sector which spoke to me intensely

34 David { 10.30.05 at 8:28 am }

(continued) It cut me off. I had much more to say. I toiled at the Forward, and wrote as a free-lancer for Aubau, on condition that I wouldn’t write about the Holocaust or Israel, out of fear that I would play into that segment of its readership which sought to perceive similarities between Israelis and nazis or fetishize Jewish victomology. On the Israel issue, I never caved, not even once.

TM is a simpleton who sees nazis in his JCC. I have plenty of demons, but I know that, and am at least wrestling with them. He glorifies his. He is not even trying.

TM disagrees with something I am saying? Make an intelligent counter-point, or shut the f-ck up. You don’t always get to debate people who know even less than you do. And as we know, a certain someone is pretty weak outside of recycled current events. Stick to THE DISENGAGEMENT, anonymous suburban traditional-eglalitarian soccer Dad man.

But in most ways, I am angrier at you and your team who stands behind this hateful, foul-mouthed, son of a bitch. You “stand by” his David f-cking Irving comparison? You had better be right, or hope there is no G-d.

I have never publicly spoken about my fellow Jew who I disagreed with in the type of language you “stand by.”

You had better be right, David.

35 ck { 10.30.05 at 2:29 pm }

Geez! Did we touch a nerve or what? TM’s status as a Dad is one we ought to all emulate, the sooner the better. If he wishes to insulate his children from his online activities, that makes him neither a coward or somehow less relevant. You don’t have to live on the Lower East Side to be relevant ya know. Hell, even American Apparel has a store two blocks away from the knish factory! TM has also come out strongly against the fetishization of the holocaust - there’s something the two of you have in common. He’s definitely not the “Nazis are everywhere” dude at the JCC.

And stop being such a weenie (weanie?). If someone correctly notes the fact that your ideas parallel those of a holocaust denier, deal with it. It does not mean that you yourself are a holocaust denier. It may however be a clue that you need to revisit your ideas, or, that said ideas are, you know, stupid.

Just the fact that we are talking to you at all shows we don’t think you are a nazi. See, we don’t talk to Nazis or engage them in discourse. You are obviously a well meaning individual with some not so good ideas. And you’re a yid - we’re actually cutting you some slack here believe it or not.

Finally, as far as me being the “owner” or “editor” of Jewschool, all I did was start it with Laya. We have no set editorial guidelines and we more often than not disagree with each other - Jewschool is pure anarchy, if you will. I have no idea from one minute to the next what fool thing is going to go up. But so far, I have no complaints - certainly not about TM. Sorry!

36 David { 10.30.05 at 3:54 pm }

I don’t know what you when you say mean “you are cutting me some slack.” You say that, “If someone correctly notes the fact that your ideas parallel those of a holocaust denier, deal with it.” I would be happy to — but the frequent response of your Middle Man’s is one that they shouldn’t be dealt with, because I’m (and others) are like David Irving. Yes, I am against Holocaust Museums as a replacement for Judaism and as a prevention against anti-Semitism. Neither works well, in fact, the opposite seems to be occuring. The Rabbis learn Esav Sinus Ya’akov — they surpisingly made no caveat about “unless they receive sensitivity training and educational trips to holocaust museums.” And go figure, the sh-t ain’t working. So glad we aren’t spending those resources on building Jewish Day Schools and subsidizing tuition where Jewish kids will learn classic texts and how to speak Hebrew. Surely the memory of the Holocaust alone will bind future generations.
I am, it is true, aware of the not so controversial idea that Jews were disproportionately involoved in radical secular movements in the past, and in the present. Don’t throw some BS at me that I am saying all or most Jews. I am not. Yes, I think there is a physical cost circumcision, as does the Rambam and the Ibn Ezra. It was a “test” for Abraham, and a latter one. Go figure. I therefore think Jews, if they are advocating this as a great health benefit for all, should reconsider. Calling a foreskin gross is not an appropriate response when setting Northeast or national policy for children outside the tribe. You don’t get to call everyone who disagrees with you David Irving and not let them talk. I never said anything suggesting holocaust denial on my part. Nothing! The fact that some of my concerns are emphasized and overexaggerated peripherally by people who engage in holocaust denial does make them holocaust denial as our Solomon Schechter Savior attempted to say.

You don’t get off being anonymous because you have “a good reason.” It changes your behavior. It has changed his. I don’t care how many right-center post-Gaza posts a week this guy pumps out. He is an awful person, and anti-Intellectual, even by dismal Sexual-Zionist standards.

37 David { 10.30.05 at 4:29 pm }

Seriously - you guys act like you were elected the PC police of the Jewish web. You don’t win the argument becuase your opinion is closest to the mainstream Jewish organization. You aren’t the most pro-Jewish because you are the most comforting one to hear! You equate “positive” with easiest to digest.

Who says that means it’s positive? What authority do you have? What education?

I don’t think Middle ever went to a post-high school yeshiva. Calling someone a “holocaust denier” does not excuse nor obscure his inability to cite sources.

38 ck { 10.30.05 at 5:03 pm }

Sheesh. Please show me where TM has called you a Nazi. He’s called you a moron but he’s never called you a Nazi AFAIK. Get Mobius to help you with the Google thing if neccessary. AND you and TM agree on the holocaust museum thing btw. TM is a fine person and he is, if anything, intelectual toi a fault, a hyper intelectual if you will.

About the cutting you slack thing - People who espouse some of the things you have usually don’t merit a response, because they are either holocaust deniers or racists. We’re not saying that you are either of these. And we’re demonstrating it by talking to you. That’s the slack.

There are plenty of anonymous people on the Internet. I mean I have no idea who the vast majority of commentors on Jewschool are. Doers that make em cowards? No. All that matters on the Internet is that your words are of some value to someone. In that respect, I certainly value TM’s contribution to the blogosphere, even when I sometimes disagree with him. So yes, again, I stand by TM.

39 David { 10.30.05 at 5:21 pm }

Again, following Esther’s 9/11 post asking me to stop — here it is explicitly linking me to David Irving:

“Deborah Lipstadt avoids and ignores Holocaust deniers. She refuses to engage them in conversation or debate. We don’t exactly have that luxury here because once the content is posted and somebody addresses it seriously, it has become fodder for conversation. That is not acceptable to me. If somebody wants to discuss some antisemitic canard that is found on hate sites, let them go to those hate sites. On this site, in my opinion, they deserve to be treated like garbage.

Didn’t ck found Jewlicious precisely because he was tired of seeing the ugly anti-Israel and anti-Jewish stuff he was reading on another blog (where, surprise, surprise, the target of my invective is a contributing poster)?”

And check #96 on the Ovadia Yosef comment,where he accuses me not of being able to “merely” find an audience on Stormfront (oh yeah, they’d just love me and my ideas, cause I’m a real defender of the uber-white Christian peasant)but of Stormfront itself.

But the first is most telling. That I am David Irving who should not be engaged in any way. Not because Middle lacks the ability to do so, of course. Not because he senses I might know more than him. Oh, no, nothing like that or fear for his fragile ego. Rather, because I am like David Irving and therefore “deserve to be treated like garbage.”

Should I give him and your site points for giving me slack for not comparing me to Mengele or Himmler? What the hell is wrong with you? What else do you need? A photoshopped picture of me in a nazi uniform at the top of one of Middle’s posts?

40 David { 10.30.05 at 5:22 pm }

Asking us to stop - and I was the one who had waited a very long time to answer insults for insults. See the Ovadiah thread.

41 Anonymous { 10.30.05 at 5:31 pm }

Ck,

You said,

“There are plenty of anonymous people on the Internet. I mean I have no idea who the vast majority of commentors on Jewschool are. Doers that make em cowards? No. ”

Yes. Yes it does. In that situation where they are posting anonymously , they are indeed acting cowardly.

Worse when as a regular.

And it shows.

42 Anonymous { 10.30.05 at 5:32 pm }

ESPECIALLY, when you start name-calling.

43 Anonymous { 10.30.05 at 7:30 pm }

And as for your Middle Ground attempt with Middle,

“AND you and TM agree on the holocaust museum thing btw.”

That’s not the issue — that we might agree on things. It’s how he would respond to it if we didn’t.

For if he did support the further building of Holocaust Museums in every city with a JCC, which fine, he doesn’t, but if he did, since that is the position of the mainstream Jewish communuty, he would attempt to deligitimize my arguments by noting they are echoed on Stormfront.

Wouldn’t he?

Yes he would. And you would defend that approach.

And it’s a horrible, BS approach that seeks to prevent discussion and dissent to those ideas not held by mainstream Jewish organizations.

44 ck { 10.30.05 at 10:01 pm }

Whatever, comparing you to a holocaust denier, or saying that your speech is hateful is not the same as calling you a Nazi. And isn’t it ironic that you blast TMs anonymity on Jewlicious while celebrating a nasty graphic made by an “anonymous” graphic artist person (who was remarkably quick with his/her editorial artwork!)?

45 David { 10.30.05 at 10:14 pm }

Comparing me to a Nazi holocaust denier is, in fact, calling me a Nazi.

46 David Kelsey { 10.30.05 at 11:32 pm }

CK,

You wrote,

“And isn’t it ironic that you blast TMs anonymity on Jewlicious while celebrating a nasty graphic made by an “anonymous” graphic artist person (who was remarkably quick with his/her editorial artwork!)?”

you put it on your own site first.

47 TM { 10.31.05 at 12:41 pm }

Aw jeez, ck, why are you wasting your time defending me?

He wants to call me a soccer dad or this or that, let him. As we both know, most of what he’s written merely points to his poor ability of deciphering what rests in front of his nose.

Kelsey, if all you can come up is that I’m a coward because I don’t use my name, or that I’m a suburbanite, or that I drive a family sedan, or that I sometimes use gel in my hair, then keep at it and I’m sure someone will eventually be convinced or even take offense. It won’t be me.

If the best you can come up with to explain your deep, deep hurt and anger at Jewlicious and yours truly is that an analogy is the same as calling you something directly, then perhaps you need to re-explore your premise. Ck has already explained this to you, but for some reason it hasn’t registered. You should try to rethink this. Good luck.

Having said that, if you’re offended, good. I hope you’re offended, whether you understand the attack on you or not.

You should realize by now that if you get all defensive about your comments, and seek to turn your anger into some sort of moral highground with me (and, it seems, with ck as well), it won’t wash. Sorry dude. You’re the one with the hateful comments about Jews. You debase yourself. I am merely someone who engaged you when you did. What were you expecting, civil debate? Nope, you don’t get civil responses or intellectual engagement when you express hateful ideas. Sorry.

Oh, and your extensive biography as a Jew who has received a Jewish education or has worked in Jewish institutions does not buy you a pass. It’s like Norman Finkelstein using his parents’ status as survivors to launch broadsides at the Jewish community. It doesn’t buy one any more legitimacy, respect, or maneuvering room with respect to the expression of hateful ideas.

Finkelstein, by the way, is often cited on Stormfront. Ultimately, you have to figure out for yourself why it took 38 seconds of Googling to show you how disgustingly similar your comments are to those who spend their lives hating and attacking Jews.

Finally, you also called me an uneducated simpleton. Fair enough, I admit it. I have never attempted to earn a Ph.D., read The Atlantic, New Yorker, NY Times and Cosmopolitan* with my lips moving - I cancelled the subscription to Harper’s because it took too long to read some of the words out loud - and am not in line to win a Nobel, Pulitzer or Booker - although I have some ideas about conceptual art representing a fellow drooling over faded images of Noam Chomsky that might get me nominated for a McArthur “Genius” Grant. Having said that, these exchanges with you don’t qualify as challenging. Sorry, this simpleton regards you as a lightweight.

.

.

.

.

.

*I lied, I don’t read Cosmo.

48 David Kelsey { 10.31.05 at 1:42 pm }

I suspected you used gel.

49 David Kelsey { 10.31.05 at 2:02 pm }

I decided to ban you, TM. I don’t care that this is a blog far outside the well travelled paths. I just don’t find you engaging, and this is my space.

I don’t want you here until I see that you will behave like a mensch.

50 David Kelsey { 10.31.05 at 2:07 pm }

You are the first person I have banned. I don’t think it was just your hatred. It is your arrogance –kind of a synergetic effect of noxious fumes. Like cholent and scotch.

If you ever decide you can act like anything besides an animal in the communal hader ochel, let me know.

51 ck { 11.01.05 at 12:41 am }

Heh. We are so impressed. Oh well, there goes your traffic! Maybe anon can make you a neat-o graphic and you can write a post about how you kicked TM to the curb! What a bad ass! You gonna ban me too?

Heh.

52 David Kelsey { 11.01.05 at 1:12 am }

No, CK. Not as long as you are interested in talking and debating, and do not restrict your interest in “dialogue” to calling “comparing” me to a neo-Nazi or a holocaust denier.

I think I deserve and can get better than,

“What were you expecting, civil debate? Nope, you don’t get civil responses or intellectual engagement when you express hateful ideas. Sorry.”

I do, in fact, expect civil debate, at least some of the time, or at least interesting debate even when not civil. And if the alternative truly is silence, I would choose and attempt to enforce that.

53 ck { 11.01.05 at 3:37 am }

Civil debate? Heh. No comment.

Re. the anonymous Jewsuckass graphic, you said “you put it on your own site first.” Lame response. You LOVED that graphic! You didn’t care that it was anonymous. So anonymity is ok if you agree with it. If you don’t then you call it names and ban it. Cool!

You also said: ” Comparing me to a Nazi holocaust denier is, in fact, calling me a Nazi.” Uh… no. That’s not actually true. Think about it for a second. If you’re still confused, I can have Muffti explain it to you.

54 David Kelsey { 11.01.05 at 4:07 am }

ck,

It’s not a debate I want. I am not interested in what extreme fascist or communist or even Zionist ideologue I sound like. I am not interested in attempting to disprove that I am in fact not like Finelstein or a Stormfronter. This is not interesting to me, and the anonymous member of your staff who insists on doing so admits that this is to avoid intellectual engagement. I don’t want to subject myself to it, and will certainly not do so on my own personal blog.

You said,

“So anonymity is ok if you agree with it.”

No, but there are different levels of anonymity. I did think the mimicking graphics were clever. I don’t have that talent. If I had created it, I would have told everyone what I did. The person who did so is obviously so talented he doesn’t need to.

The fact that he/she (boy are we playing a stupid game now) stayed anonymous is more interesting to me than why someone who “compares” people to facsists and far-leftists to avoid debate is. Anyone can just call names.

55 TM { 11.01.05 at 11:24 am }

*snigger*

56 TM { 11.01.05 at 11:32 am }

Heh, you actually erased my comment in the other discussion - which you posted specifically to address points I’ve been making. Why so insecure, David?

Anyway, just so we are clear, I was only visiting here because a Technorati link showed that a guest came to Jewlicious from here. When I saw this discussion which includes many references to me, I thought you should at least enjoy having me participate. The point being that while I found this discussion amusing, I am not a regular here and won’t miss these rare visits.

At the least, and I mean this seriously and sincerely, I hope that you will consider the points behind my comments (and attacks) in this discussion and previously.

Take care, dude.

57 ck { 11.01.05 at 7:59 pm }

Hey TM! How’s it shakin?
*snigger*

58 shamir { 11.07.05 at 3:49 am }

love the graphic kelsey. see you thu!
-s

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