NCSY Promotes Unprotected Sex
May 11, 2007 Kiruv, NCSY, Sexuality
I really thought we were going to make it to Monday without yet another story on NCSY’s irresponsibility with liberal Jewish teens. I really thought that with shabbos coming, we had a shot.
But NCSY is simply not normal. To not allow for controversy and betrayal from NCSY is like expecting a paranoid schizophrenic to stop talking to himself.
The Canonist points out that NCSY’s new ‘abstinence only’ website actually discourages condom use.
“Condoms are not the answer.”
Neither is NCSY. Would some kind person please chuck these fundamentalists out of our public schools?
Update: jspot weighs in!
26 comments
some of the arguments you have made agains the whole ncsy/jsu phenom are well thought and interesting.
However, if you had to raise children in this very sick world you might understand that a zero tolerance policy is really the only way to go.
I am sorry sir, but you and your blog friends are incorrect. Encouraging safe sex might be great for the rest of the world, but not for us.
The continuance of our people is based in family purity.
Jewish tradition mandates 3 things that are “yeharaig v’al yaavor” , that one must be willing to be killed for, rather than transgress. Shfichat Damim, Avodah Zarah, and Giluy Arayot. Murder, Idol Worship and Sexual Promiscuity (which comes in many many forms).
I would happen to agree with the above poster.
You canot simply lump everything NCSY or JSU does in one corner – to do so is wholly irresponsible. Those two organizations apparently do a lot of good for lot of people , and while it’s not a lifestyle you enjoy or support, plenty of others do.
So enjoy maintaining a website whose primary purpose is to be a pimple on the ass of humanity.
Levi,
These aren’t “two” organizations. These are the same organization. Clearly you are employed by NCSY, as you seek to promote this fiction.
Tell us Levi, which region of NCSY do you work for? And which public schools do you infiltrate? Tell us, Levi the NCSY and JSU employee.
Look kid, I’m a 42 year old real estate agent with 2 children in high school. I sell electronics on the side, so I don’t think being NCSY or JSU advisor would really bump my salary much.
What I can tell you that JSU gave my kid a scholarship to attend Camp JRF this summer, and I’m pretty sure they won’t be teaching him about abstinence education.
Levi,
Was that from the Chicago JSU?
I am a political liberal and somewhat cynical towards the whole ncsy thing in general.
However, this is a world where Dawson’s Creek and American Pie are as basic as Mister Roger’s Neighborhood. Not too mention the new influences of easy online social netowrking with the world.
The challenges facing parents to raise religious kids in the world now and in the future is a very tough one, and it is too the OU’s credit that they are one Orthodox group that is trying to do something. Time will tell its efectiveness or not.
This is about teaching the kids how important they are, not about teaching them to sleazy but relatively safe.
Here’s an even more compelling argument: if you have sex, you might kill yourself.
http://www.ou.org/index.php/ab.....y/suicide/
david:
put it this way: why is aids non-existent in the charedi community?
there are perhaps four cases, in the entire International Charedi community…
an issue i have with your site as well as failed messiah is that you paint everything Charedi as being evil and everything in your perfect little world as being, well, rational, so well thought out, and leading to, oh, such a great and rewarding life.
there is a reason why many secular jews become ba’alei teshuvoh.
david:
did you ever read “Catcher in the Rye”?
Radloh,
Of course I read “Catcher in the Rye,” why?
And my issue is not, if fact, with charedim. It is with charedi recruitment and aggression, which is a small percentage of the haredi community. These are two different things.
Many people become Baalei Teshuva bec. they are attracted to the social communal aspects of the Jewish Religious community. For some reason, this doesn’t work so well with the Conservative or Reform community. Perhaps they don;t have a strong weekly turnout to their programs and prayer services, I don’t know. but they see that the Orthodox, are able to produce certain ‘moments’ which occur fairly regularly in most shules, a Bar or Bat Mitzvah, a wedding, a Sheva Brachos.
If one is basically outgoing and friendly, once can enjoy the festive type air surrounding the ceremonies. Perhaps the Orthodox celebrate these in a more religious manner, while the others treat them as a beautiful party for the most part. So people are looking for meaning in their lives, by meaning I mean, that especially in a cruel and harsh world, the horrible things one sees and experiences, the religious observances take their minds off of the details, and gives them some time for rest and focus.
No one else is agressively targeting these people, or also due to their knowledge that they are a Jew, that they can if they are not true athiests, most do not mind spending some time learning about this religion that they are a member of.
The Kiruv people are able to use their techniques to get these people to feel comfortable, and
enjoy themselves.
At a very minimal cost at the beginning. But the Kiruv people target upper middle class and up folks by and large. they open up in neighborhoods that are mostly of this type, that is, often very classes of Jews live in the same neighborhood, due to past associations and other related reasons.
Kiruv organizations are actually self perpecuating
job mills for those in the know.
Stanley,
I would say that many, though certainly not all, of kiruv orgs employ tactics similar to or just the same as New Religions (a.k.a. cults). To be clear, I am not calling them cults, but I am saying some techniques would qualify as cult-like.
And yes, the kiruv movement is a bit of a pyramid scheme.
“And my issue is not, if fact, with charedim. It is with charedi recruitment and aggression, which is a small percentage of the haredi community”
weeell, you do also have issues with specific trips within the jewish religious theologies themselves. To The Degree that modern orthodoxy is able to impress you with it’s williness to reject the values that you reject while maintaining the ones you like (which, thus far, seem to be mostly ettiqutte rather than
mitvot.)
This is one of the absurdities in the fantasy of cultivating a Judaism divorced from religious fundamentalism: what else is a religion based on? specific primitive values and traditions, sacramentalized into imperatives.
And I feel you here, again, i could just be projecting, backing away from being honest about what you really value, and what you would rather judaism be, if at all, in the face of the obvious backlash.
Because, why WOULDN’T NCSY promote charedi values? those are religious jewish values! It’s almost as silly as pretending that Zionism is really not the inevitable consequence of a religion that sings endless songs about rebuilding Jerusalem.
We can blame the Hasmoneans, as if they started the fire, but really now. Circumsision was thee norm before they took control, as if the cohanim weren’t in control the whole fucking time, writing every single book, installing every single king.
Is there a modern ortho justification for condom sex on the books yet? besides the “they’ll be fucking and aborting anyway” meme?
The only people in the religious community I can imagine getting condoms sacramentalized would have to be the mystical chassidim, who could talk the theology of pleasure as being some kind of spiritual development in the fixing of the world, or some similar sweet malarky. Because mysticsm is the only justification for progress in the religious world that’s suceeded in moving the orthodoxy without suddenly catching itself at some step in the enlightenment saying, “wait a second: why the fuck am I trying to perpetuate judaism again?”
Because if the traditional molds of sexual morality aren’t sacred, then why did we have them? If we say, “oh, that’s just how things had to be.” Then fuck it, what aspect of the religion ISN’T that way?
If they condoms canbe made sacred, and the sex had with them too, EXPERIENCED as more sacred that the married unprotected sex, then and only then will the religious community be impressed.
“Shfichat Damim, Avodah Zarah, and Giluy Arayot. Murder, Idol Worship and Sexual Promiscuity (which comes in many many forms).”
everything else said, It might be a stretch to call safe sex gilui arayos. by defintion, the ervah of your cock stays unrevealed! that’s what makes it safe!
Yosef Leib you asked,
“This is one of the absurdities in the fantasy of cultivating a Judaism divorced from religious fundamentalism: what else is a religion based on?”
Ancient documents deemed divine, but open to broad and diverse interpretation.
“And I feel you here, again, i could just be projecting, backing away from being honest about what you really value, and what you would rather judaism be, if at all, in the face of the obvious backlash.”
I concede that my value system at times and in some ways conflicts with traditional Judaism. Such is the weight of four generations of secularism — albeit traditional-secularism — on one side of the family.
Still — there is a difference between the traditional Judaism I have issues with and the fundamentalism that is foreign to my religious ancestry.
“Because, why WOULDN’T NCSY promote charedi values?”
Because for the vast majority of secular Jewry who descend from those who came here pre-WWII (which really means pre-1925), this is not their heritage, or they would not have defied daas Torah and come to the treifa medinah. They were never haredim.
“Because if the traditional molds of sexual morality aren’t sacred, then why did we have them? If we say, “oh, that’s just how things had to be.â€?”
Then start killing gay men. Or at least advocate for their death. It’s different than breaking shabbos — go ahead. We can’t change it, right? Advocate for their death. Like they do in Iran. Like they do elsewhere.
On the bright side, concubines and more than one wife is fine. Well, on the bright side concubines. More than one wife sounds like a nightmare.
I’m secular, belong to a Conservative synagogue, provide my son with a good, solid Jewish upbringing and would consider any activity intended to make him an Orthodox or Haredi Jew to be vile. I shouldn’t have to worry about brain-washing of my son and it is not the place of any movement or other person to tell my son how he should “really” practice Judaism. You all know that if the same was done to the sons of these Kiruvniks by, say, secular folks, they’d scream murder.
At one time, the NCSY was known for very moving Havdallah services, probably this was copied by others in all the streams of Judaism. My question is, do you mind, if you are secular/Conservative Jew, that your child be exposed to people who attribute every occurance in their lives to the Ratzon Hashem, that, they are constantly praising Hashem when they say things like, Bi’Ezras Hashem Baruckh HaShem,etc. and also conducts discussions along these lines with out getting into dogmas of wearing this or that, just the basic concept in Religion, that their is a God, and that we, in this case, the Jewish people are able to have what they call a ’special relationship’ with Hashem, and for that matter, their mantas of getting or feeling close to Hashem. Does this God talk present any issue to the Anti NCSY’ers or just the idea of the Charedi lifestyle as has been discussed ad nauseum, including the Kiruv theatricks, and the hefty costs that these Kiruv organization endeavour to cover, well into the millions of dollars just for the top 8 people in for example Big Aish.
Would you be happy with the old NCSY of 20-30 years ago, or is that also nisht?
Stanley,
If we went back in NCSY time 20 years, we would see many of the same problems that got worse with time. These concepts should be explored, but perhaps from a less intense place. Of course we should explain things from a traditional Jewish perspective, but I don’t think we want counselors who answer B”H” to questions. It’s too much, and not necessary. Obviously I have issues with people who present every aspect of Judaism as literal fact to secular and liberal Jewish teens. No one knows that. Why insist on it?
why didnt they do this a few years ago after they finally admitted that they had admnistrators who were getting sexual with kids?
Um….
“Giluy Arayos” refers to all kinds of sexual activity, wasted seed, and immodesty. It worse for kids to defile themselves out of lust (which they think is love) by getting and receving oral pleasures.
” It worse for kids to defile themselves out of lust (which they think is love) by getting and receving oral pleasures.”
worse than what? murder? idolotry?
DK, I guess in this case of NCSY, they feel that they want to impact the students in a positive way.
I beleive they are more interested in then getting them onto Birthright or some summer programms that NCSY does, that the class time, is an entry mode into that.
its not that they are saying that unprotected sex is ok….they are saying that condoms dont make it better!!
wow how dumb are you?
you really hear what you want to hear
i hope you dont have kids
okay i dont know who is writing these columns about ncsy, but whoever you are, you dont know a thing about ncsy. i have participated for over 4 years and it is the most spiritual, amazing, and fulfilling use of my time. it has taught me so much about my background and religiousity. ncsy would never say to have unprotected sex. they are implying that you shouldnt have sex period, until you’re married. the torah says that you shouldnt waste a human life, and using a condom is preventing a child from being born. theyre not parading about saying, “have unprotected sex!” it is just the oppisite!!!
god, i dont know who you are but i kinda wish i did so i could slap you in the face
youre so opinionated that you never once stopped to think this through. why would a jewish youth group promote unprotected sex dude?
I stumbled across this blog and I have to say there are some misguided people here. I see so much hate for religious people, I cant believe what I am reading. I am a regular guy and I have friends on both ends of the spectrum. One difference is that the religious parents in my community’s kids would never be in this situation to begin with Vs the less religious parents who are watching their children doing dangerous things and have to worry about these repercussions that are being discussed on this site. One thing I do not see discussed on this site is the biggest repercussion of all which is the punishment discussed in the torah for the sins discussed on this site. There are about 27 or so forbidden relations in the torah. One of them is to have relations with a nidah (single girls are all nidah) now is it worth the small few minutes of pleasure, to get KARET (CUT-OFF) for? Why would you put your children in this situation by sending them down the same path you are on? Im sure you believe in G-D. So why belittle him by talking about those who are doing the right thing? The conclusion I come up with is that some people feel so guilty about being non religious and doing sins that the natural thing for them to do is put down those that are following the torah, so they don’t feel so bad as by putting someone down you are trying to reverse your guilty conscious to felling better about yourself in an inaccurate way. Nevertheless psychologically or subconsciously may feel temporary a bit better each time you put down the ones who are following the torah. This fix is only temporary and you will inevitably feel guilty again thus requiring a new fix (i.e., drugs, gambling, arayot, or putting down the good so you don’t feel like your so bad). Now I can tell you this lifestyle is always looking for comfort and pleasure or something more, but you will never find any (thus you are wasting your time on sites such as this as this site is not worth anything of value and really amounts to nothing in your lives) each time you look forward to a new pleasure, fix, or excitement and it may even feel temporary relief from feeling bored or dull most of the time, it always ends with a depressing tomorrow and you need a bigger and better dose or fix to feel happy next time your so down (not necessarily talking about drugs, or alcohol)
Now a year ago I who had a good upbringing and grew up religiously did not spend time learning torah too much after school or barely at all. I used to get home from work each night and i would do everything but learning. I got in to watching tv series on dvd like 24, or seinfield, (I was netflix best customer) friends,fraiser,cheers,etc well you get the point. I always enjoyed watching them as i still do when i occasionally watch an episode now. but once the episode / series was over i was looking for something else to fill my need for entertainment and i would play cards with friends, or try so many other things, all ended with the same result at the end of the day: I would need a new dvd series to watch or a new thing to kill time as everything eventually grew boring.
I have a friend who I owe a lot to, who used to tell me there is a program of working boys who learn for about an hr each night 4 times a week. i always pushed him off telling him i have to work late or to ask me in a few months again. he told me about it 2 or 3 times over a year when i saw him at an engagement (i once even joked im gonna get a restraining order but he knew i was just kidding as he is and was a dear friend) deep down i wanted something different but was too stuck in the same old rut or routine and was either too lazy or too scared to give up Jack Bauer for.
Then i had one issue after another a bad dental ordeal that felt like it will not end 6 dentists and six months later and still the pain, and many other issues (it was for the best as you will see , .. so i must of had a zechut somewhere to wake me up) so finally even my relaxing time after work was not enjoyable but i was miserable so i told Hashem i would commit to learning two lesson a day from the lashon hara book. within a few days after spending all that money on dentists night guards, and the feeling of no relief and all the return emergency visits to the dentist with no relief, I started feeling better. eventually i decided to go learn once or twice a week for a half hr when i was not too tired. An amazing thing happened. \
(Growing up I was very savvy and extremely street smart. I always figured how to beat any system, i had i rough time with book smarts)
When I went to learn I understood the learning very quickly and was so surprised how I was asking questions that where deep and was able to take a topic and take it apart, understand each part by itself them put it back together, it was the best feeling much better then watching a show or something. I never felt so excited about something like this and I had obviously received this tremendous reward for just taking the first step of just walking in the doors of the beth midrash. I even saw the hand of hashem small things like with parking (on the nights i was too tired to go but took a shower to wake myself up and pushed myself out the door to go learn and there was not a spot for a whole block to park my car, i found a spot right in front (and it was cold outside too) I then also understood all the gemaroh especially fast that night. I get so much spiritual pleasure and fulfillment from learning torah now.
I crave it all the time. The more I learn the better I feel and that does not go away. If i had to explain the wonderful feeling i get from learning torah, that for sure trumps any other activity
I wouldn’t have succeeded, as a year ago no one in the world would have been able to convince me with any words. “You have to do it to believe it.” So I may not persuade anyone reading this to go learn or be a better Jew. But on the chance it can have such an impact on you as it did me (don’t think im brainwashed or anything like that as i still try both ways and the torah way always ends up winning. ( i slack off or get lazy sometimes and don’t go learn for a week and end up catching up on season 7 of 24) the more i go back to learn the next week the more i want. I LOVE THE TORAH AND HASHEM and i hope that, for even a few days you can understand what im writhing. It is real and exciting and i never felt more alive before. If someone told me that last year I would not understand what that really meant let alone even try it out.
I recommend to anyone: go against your rational and try torah out will see its the only real thing and you really have nothing to loose. It is so sweet, deep and meaningfull there is not much to loose and a whole lot to gain.
Go to a torah class or better yet listen to free classes online from Rabbi Diamond (he has a big impact on me from his weekly CD/Class at http://www.learntorah.com Its free to listen. I guarantee you will walk away much much happier then you would after a movie or anything else and it will last! Rabbi Mansour also is wonderful as is Rabbi Sutton and everyone else who is on the site. I hope at least even one persons life improves (as did mine) as a result of this post.
thank you for reading
you fuckers scare me.
I agree that we should take a stand and encourage abstinence as the only choice for our children. I wish when I was growing up that I was taught to walk the better path, but, my mother(single) did the best with what she had… I however the next generation know why abstinence is more condusive to a healthy future both body and mind can encourage my daughter on a road less travelled by society.. a pure path…this is one sin that hurts a lot… I will also be sure to explain everything to her so she is well educated on the matter. Thank you for standing up for what is pure in the eyes of the lord=)
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