fundie watcher’s Point About NCSY’s Culture of Downward Mobility
May 17, 2007 NCSY, Yeshiva Univeristy
I can’t forget a comment by “fundie watcher” from my post back in December. I found it quite profound, and relevant to the discussion we are having about NCSY. And no, the commenter was not me. fundie watcher writes,
It is not just the fundie dichotomy of college or no college. Then the fundies at YU can think they aren’t fundie. But more importantly, is that NCSY trains kids to be downwardly mobile in subtle ways. Kids who were raised upper middle class -professional (OR where on their way there) are taught to like lower middle class tastes. To not live in Englewood but in Kew Garden Hills, Not to live in Beverley Hills but in the Valley. Not to learn to dress in style but yeshivish, not to develop a palette but to enjoy fast food, not to learn to appreciate art, music, literature but instead to stick with their love of action movies, paint ball, and pop music.
Of course, frummies would claim NCSY is taking a stand against materialism. But it does look like a broader rejection than that, doesn’t it?
47 comments
“culture” “sophistication” appreciation of the arts. superficial, shallow, pretentious, bourgeois meaningless bullshit. THIS is what you’re complaining about?
mohammed,
If and when downward mobility is being preached, it should be known and be noted by the teens’ parents.
This is the most ridiculous post you have presented to date. Congrats! You have once again illustrated to your readers your complete ignorance. It is sad. I actually wish you made important points based on facts as every issue deserves to have both sides represented. Unfortunately, you do a poor job of representing your side when it comes to your anti-orthodoxy tirades. Maybe, next time.
Akiva Crown,
Let’s leave aside the fact that you have never conceded any problem — ever — in terms of kiruv organizations, which clearly to your way of thinking, is a utopia. Rather, let’s see if the claim I published is in line with NCSY’s own much touted study Lily Foundation from back in ‘98:
“NCSY men tend to have higher education levels than their fathers, this is not the case with respect to occupation. Rather, the occupations of their fathers tend to either outrank or parallel those of their alumni sons.�
I wonder why…maybe it’s yoridos hardoros?
DK
I really have no interest in defending ncsy. I don’t think any money should be wasted on kiruv altogether, except kiruv krovim.
but objectively speaking,I think you’re wrong here. They’re not preaching downward mobility as a principle, they’re exposing shallow, superficial bullshit for what it is. if as a result of that people choose not to waste their time with it, that’s their own decision. what I’m trying to say is, it’s a side effect, not a principle. I think people should be upfront about what they stand for but from an ethical standpoint, an organisation isn’t obligated to highlight every side effect which may not be to someones liking.
please don’t counter that they’re filling them up with other bullshit instead. that’s totally irrelevant.
mohammed,
I don’t think it is a side effect. This is on top of the education issue, which is no small matter, but the most telling one, as it illuminates the preferred trajectory. If this were not on top of this important diverging point, perhaps it would matter less, as the kids would still be if not encouraged, at least not discouraged from attending top notch colleges, which is what liberal Jewish parents do want for their kids.
You are looking at this as an isolated point, but it should not be, not just in terms of what they discourage, but what they encourage — haredi institutions (O.S./Neve/Aish) and the acutal partnership with Touro.
My issue is not with the lack of “sophistication” but the culture that makes people unwilling to try new things. On a very basic level, I have the same food at every shabbat meal I attend. No one is interested in cuisine other than their own, often to the detriment of their health.
Yeah, I guess cranberry crunch is good once, but if kids were taught openness to other cultures (not only in regards to food) I think that it could only be of benefit to the religious community.
Annie, you wrote,
“if kids were taught openness to other cultures (not only in regards to food) I think that it could only be of benefit to the religious community.”
In fact, the opposite is true for fundamentalists of all religions. It is considered important to teach that other cultures, particularly the dominant culture, is depraved. You are seeking stronger exchange programs when the RWMO are seeking taller, less porous, walls, particularly in regards to culture one can sink his teeth into. Blockbusters are fine, but one must, must stay away from the thoughtful Independent pictures. Treat nothing outside as serious.
Annie
People don’t want to experiment with their Sabbath meal, they want a traditional meal with traditional food, sort of like turkey on Thanksgiving. That says nothing at all about how willing they are to experiment during the week.
mohammed,
I have actually heard haredi rabbis criticizing Jews for not restricting themselves to a “Jewish” palette in line with a seven year old in 19th century Poland.
This is my first trip to you blog and its pretty obvious whats going on here. You obviously hold a grudge against NCSY, and have made it your goal to try and ruin any work they do (and yeah i know its your on wiki).
Maybe its because you never made regional board, maybe its because you blame them because they make your gf religious or maybe its just plain jew on jew hatred.
As a prominant leader in NCSY i take offense at the fact that a jew would get his facts wrong time after time after time. Its one thing to be a critic, its another to get your facts so totally wrong. Its at the point of libel how many lies you tell
unprotected sex? Come on, even you know thats a step to far.
Jon,
What facts are wrong? Please explain. As for the issue of unprotected sex, when an organization takes such a hard stand against condoms, as NCSY has, this is in effect advocating unprotected sex.
how about the fact that i as a high ranking administrator in NCSY advocate time and time again for kids to the to the RIGHT school, sometimes its co-ed sometimes its not. To claim we only push schools like T and YU is just plain wrong
Jon,
What level administrator? Your educational policy speaks for itself. You have the essay ‘Poison Ivies’ in your official educational guide. The OU has boasted in your own magazine how you are able to convince the brightest teens to give up their opportunity to attend the best colleges in the nation.
Additionally, we have proof of recruitment to your dual curriculum schools not only in NCSY, but in your deceptive front, JSU, which targets public school kids whose parents have no idea who you really are or what you really seek.
Tis a big difference between giving up a great education at a school with NO jewish life (which is the types we dont like) and one with a significant one like columbia (which is fine). Fact is yeah i would be proud of that. I would sooner see a kid religious and have a very good education then a great education and marry a shiksa he met.
What we seek? You act like our goal is to eat the flesh of baby children!
The fact is anyone who cares enough about their kids to ask will be told candidly and openly about who we are and what we do.
PS i will revert your wiki’s over and over!!!
Jon,
I’m bringing in others- Baruch Lanner will be on the ncsy page. Oh, yes., It is an important part of NCSY’s history.
you want war, you will get war. It will help expose who NCSY is, and how they operate.
Lanner is one thing, we can discuss that, but of course you would rather do that in public cause all you want is publicity, and not to talk like a civilized human.
But the college thing with a “promo” for your own blog is another. That i will make sure never gets up there. It violates wiki’s rules.
I am putting the Lanner link back up, without a link to my blog. If you delete it again, it is war.
Do you understand?
No thats not the way it works, on wiki you have to come to a deal with the person you are disagreeing with, or else its called a edit war and we will both be limited in editing.
War? Is this how you react to a fellow jew? because we disagree you want war? Wow.
ps what are you ganna do punk????
Jon,
I was never threatening you physically, but I can’t take your tough talk seriously when you are too chicken to show who you are.
If you and NCSY want to try to block information about Lanner on wikipedia, I think that is something we need to talk about it with others as well.
Jon,
You and NCSY have a real problem with people who disagree with you. Have you considered leaving secular and liberal Jews alone?
Why don’t you get out of our schools?
Show who i am? Do u want me to post my name address tele # and SS number? Come on.
We dont have a problem with people who disagree with us, and we dont run after those who do telling them how wrong they are.
We dont “leave them alone” as you say (its not like we hunt them down if they dont get religious), because we have a biblical obligation to bring them back to the G-d. If dont like it? Fine. But we are doing what is right, while you seem to just want to create a chilul hashem (thats creating a bad name for jews and therefore G-d with non-jewsm because im sure you arent educated enough to know that from your attacks).
If a kid isnt interested at all we leave them alone. We let them come to us, we dont go into the classroom and demand they come, we set up shop and let them come to us.
So stop being all bitter about something that happened to you and grow up
Jon,You conflate a “kiddush Hashem “with what’s good for NCSY organizationally. Kind of convenient, don’t you think?
Who are you, Jon?
no Kiddush Hashem is whats good for the jewish people. Like fighting between two jews like this? Bad.
Listening to the torah? Good.
Who am i?
Jon,
I put the post in draft form, as the link to Baruch Lanner is still there.
I offered Rabbi Burg and FE to discuss these matters privately, and they both declined. I fear the only thing NCSY is responsive to is overwhelming public pressure. Hopefully, they will get it.
I would recommend reviewing my posts and talking about the issues intelligently instead of yelling and screaming about how you hope I don’t have children and how I am a “punk.” I am much more willing to have dialog than your superiors, but I will not be abused like that.
Wow you really misread things. I called you a punk as
a joke in response to you “declaring war” on me.
And who are you that you deserve a discussion on any
of this? You want to know who i am beyond Jon? I want
to know who you think you are that makes you in
charge?
I am the only one who has been actually willing to
talk you are the one who has been declaring war and
telling NCSY to get out of the schools.
You really read this stuff the way you want to hear it huh?
jon,
I know the haredi institutions NCSY recruits for–Ohr Somayach, Aish HaTorah, Neve (among others) and know the damage they do and seek to do. Parents don’t want that for their kids.
And by the way — Touro sucks.
DECEPTIVELY recruits for, I might add.
whats wrong with ohr somayach and aish? How dare these kids try and reconnect with their roots??
ANd we have plenty kids this year going to mevaseret, reishit, and shalavim….are they horrible too. Im sure u think they are becuase u hate to see people be frum
jon,
Ohr Somayach, Aish, and Neve are quiescent fundamentalist institutions. They are awful. They must be exposed, and should not be given recruiting access through NCSY’s JSU.
I see you are going to continue to erase the lnik on Lanner on Wikipedia, correct?
yeah until we work it out i will continue to erase it.
Fundimentalist? LOL! thats amazing!! Any place that preaches following all 613 fundamentalist to you?
No, Jon.
Any suggestion for the Baruch Lanner link?
That’s the problem with you kiruvniks. When it comes to BTs, you don’t know the difference between Modern Orthodox and haredi to the core.
And you don’t want to know. Just like you didn’t want to know about what Baruch Lanner was doing.
He was “making them frum.” End of story.
sure….you have my e-mail, e-mail me i am not doing this in public.
and us “kiruvnicks” dont know the difference? lol! thats great. Haredis would never have girls and guys on the same shabbaton, or sessions on TV or movies.
See we are either too frum, not frum enough.
Enemies to the left of me, enemies to the right of me….obviously we cant win.
You justify it for “kiruv.” The rules are different in “kiruv,” right Jon?
Oh, you’re winning. You’re winning big. It’s time to change that. You guys think you can take over everything.
Your right, we are taking over. First the media then the businesses THEN THE WORLD HAHAHAHHA (btw have you been reading the prodocols of the elders of zion?)
The rules arent different, but you claimed we were charidi, who clearly wouldnt do that.
and yet again your argument changed, now we arent religious enough? You just want a fight with ncsy..its kinda sad.
Not religious enough? What are you talking about? I’m not fooled by your motives, that’s all. You people are way too frum.
I sent you an email. Do you have no answer about Lanner?
yeah how dare we keep all 613? its terrible.
wow you two are crazy.
But i have to agree with jon, DK your arguments make no sense
That isn’t the issue. Again, make things up, why listen? I’m not interested in convincing you. I’m interested in explaining to liberal Jewish parents why NCSY is a problem.
I have over 30 posts here (and three large ones at Jewschool) explaining the problems of NCSY. You are welcome to read them and find out my issues instead of making them up.
Dk, I think that “Jon” is a fake. If he were sincerley w/ NCSY he would reveal his ID and talk in a more compassionate and genuinely religious manner.
Why does he remain Anonymous if he is for real?
Obviously, you can say some things Anon. that you wouldn’t using your real ID.
But he is claiming to Speak for NCSY why is he acting like a impolite and cantakerous bitch?
He wouldn’t talk like this using his real name, so I deduce that “Jon” is a fake.
For the record, I initially did not agree with DK on NCSY, altho I do emphatically agree with his views on the Big Kiruv places.
I decided to keep an open mind about NCSY. THe truth is I think I know about them bec. they are so visible in the Suburban NY area, there are all kinds of groups that they have. But what do I really know about them? Not a thing. maybe DK is right about NCSY as he deffo is about Big aish, Neve, and whats his face.
Stanley,
If he were to reveal himself, sure he would at least fake greater politeness and compassion. But you are assuming NCSY people are always nice. Well, we know they aren’t always nice. Not when the blinds are drawn.
Right?
mohammed, are you a muslim?, what are you doing here?
or are you a jew who thinks he is funny using the great name of mohammed?
yalzer.
mohammed is an anti-Zionist Jew. Now go away, please.
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