New Blogs Challenging Big Kiruv
There are a couple of new blogs challenging Big Kiruv that deserve monitoring, and not just by Big Aish. One is the Kiruv Awareness Network. This scholarly blog approaches issues in traditional Judaism most BTs would find repellent if they understood their widespread intensity, like this post, on “Attitudes and Laws toward the *OTHER*.” Absolutely disturbing stuff. Like this beauty from the oh-so-moderate Zionist leader, Rabbi Abraham Issac HaCohen Kook.
In the book “Orot,” Orot Yisrael chapter 5, article 10 (page 156), Rabbi Kook wrote: “The difference between the Jewish soul, in all its independence, inner desires, longings, character and standing, and the soul of all the Gentiles, on all of their levels, is greater and deeper than the difference between the soul of a man and the soul of an animal, for the difference in the latter case is one of quantity, while the difference in the first case is one of essential quality.”
In addition to other posts, see the links section for important rebuttals to various “proofs� and infamous charlatan/machers in the Big Kiruv business.
Another blog I think is important is “The Journey Off: A frum girl’s journey off the derech,â€? which warms even my cold heart. It’s touching, personal, and from a woman’s perspective, which is great, and desperately needed. And I find a many of her posts interesting, and quite relevant. Like this post, which noted,
I have one frum relative - a 2nd cousin whose family I am actually pretty close with. He’s also a baal teshuva, having become frum through NCSY and then going way beyond. He’s spent the last couple years in Israel, learned at the Mirrer.
He got married the other night[…] It was the first Orthodox wedding my father has ever attended. He had some warning about what it would be like especially since hearing about the rapid engagement process (my cousin got engaged about two weeks after meeting his now wife) but he was still quite surprised about some of the details, such as the mechitza that divided the room for everything, including the dinner, dancing and even my cousin’s parents.
The BT couple was engaged after two weeks, and everything was segregated at the wedding even to the parents of the bride and groom.
Now that’s an NCSY success story!
38 comments
who r u to decide who long or short an engagement should be?
The rest….yeah thats pretty crazy
Great. How is this different from the hate sites that list all kinds of talmudic quotes to show the perfidy of the Jews?
TM,
The fact that this is Rabbi Kook is interesting, and it is problematic.
And quite frankly, it is also quite upsetting.
Let just try and understand. You can insult the way a religious family does things (i wont use orthodox because it is an ethnic slur) and yet when anyone questions how religious u r or how you practice they are horrible for questioning the way YOU want to practice. They arent forcing this wedding practice on anyone who doesnt want to come to the wedding,
Also i notice the extreme absence of any mention of how ruachdic the dancing I’m sure was. NO ONE tops the religious on ruach at a wedding, but of course that would be complimentary and you would hate to do that
“i wont use orthodox because it is an ethnic slur”
Actually, it is not, Fran. It is not a racial or ethnic slur at all. Most of us here are pretty much the same ethnicity.
“Also i notice the extreme absence of any mention of how ruachdic the dancing I’m sure was”
I don’t care. You know why? Because single sex dancing is boring, Fran. It is a waste of time. It is a waste of energy. It is better to read a book than hold hands with a bunch of men and run around in circles. Unless you play for the other team. And then there are much larger issues for living an ultra-Orthodox life, and for marrying.
I like KAN, he is actually really respectful, but he is doing nothing new than any other skeptic blog before him.
“Actually, it is not, Fran. It is not a racial or ethnic slur at all. Most of us here are pretty much the same ethnicity.”
It is. Its no different then the N word. It was invented to dicredit and insult the religious jews, despite its connotation now.
“I don’t care. You know why? Because single sex dancing is boring, Fran. It is a waste of time. It is a waste of energy. It is better to read a book than hold hands with a bunch of men and run around in circles.”
right and if you find it boring you MUST be right. How dare peopel do things differently. we must have coed dancing because how else am i going to cop a feel. Its not possible to have fun another way. Grow up man. There are other opinions besides yours. Just because you dont like it doesnt mean others agree with you and that you might be wrong.
“then there are much larger issues for living an ultra-Orthodox life, and for marrying.”
and yet you chose to spend an entire article on it. Is it important or not? wow you are a hypocrate
Fran,
I am sure the secular/liberal parents were just f’ing thrilled that their kids had a completely segregated wedding. Of course they are. So, so, so, very happy.
Why don’t you put a picture of the parents sitting separately on the JSU site?
Fran,
Orthodox is not a slur. Poeple tend to use it as a label to define observance. It is not like the N-word. I’d even go as far as saying it’s a source of pride for orthodox Jews.
but no one FORCED them to go! You may or may not have a point about jsu, but that is totally different!
Its not THEIR wedding and they didnt HAVE to go and no one “tricked” them into going, the people who get married can do what THEY want!
Stop it! even you cant possibly believe this wedding is ANYTHING like the points you make about JSU
It is a slur, just because it is no longer negative doesnt mean it didnt start as one. Look up the start of the word. It was started by the reform to make religious people look backward. People use the N word in rap songs as a positive connotation, doesnt make it any more wrong because of what it used to mean
Fran, you are off the wall. Orthodox is not an ethnic slur. It is religious, not ethnic. That’s why the OU stands for “Orthodox Union,” which is nothing like Heeb or Niggers With Attitude. Okay? Stop it, you are acting like a hypersensitive fahfrumte penguin.
NAACP? If i called a black person colored i would be run from the street! Its no different
“i wont use orthodox because it is an ethnic slur�
Fran, I disagree with pretty much everything you post here, but this is just silly.
It seems to me that you just sort of lurk around here, waiting for David to say something - anything - so you can accuse him of hypocrisy, double standards, whatever. Don’t you have anything else to do?
DK,
That quote from Rav Kook is horribly disturbing. It seems so out of character relative to everything else I’ve read by and about him. Do you think it’s an accurate translation?
i have talking about orthodoxy being a slut ever since i have learned about it. Has nothing to do with him
Fran,
Shut up. Just. Shut. Up. Anything more on this subject and you are in moderation again from this ISP.
cipher,
No idea. The only thing I can tell you is that even progressive MO leaders are not always progressive in every way, and sometimes say contradictory things. I guess we should see the context. But on some level, it is what it is.
ARe you joking? Just because im expressing my viewpoint? At least before you had a good reason, now? Now its just censorship because you know im right
It’s censorship because you are driving my readers nuts with your suspiciously lame and obsessive pedantic complaints.
except that all that has happened is a disagreement, no one has complained yet. But i forgot the world revolves around you so if you are bothered everyone else must be too.
how fun for u
Fran, get a job and a girlfriend. Oh I forgot, you are caligynephobic.
gf? sorry i dont swing that way
single sex dancing, much like string bean meditations, rock, and not just if you’re gay. What’s the proof? indians. like, Native AmerIndians. They do it to, so it must be cool.
Because when i’m not trying to impress a girl, i might do something more purely lishma, just for fun. that’s my apologetic for today.
I’m sorry all i do here is contradict your opinions buddy, but come on! Single sex dancing, a waste of energy? Then why do girls like doing it so much?
plus, re: Rav Kook, he’s playing both sides of the field, being as traditional as possible except when he’s rejecting everything in the tradition. You’ll recall, he also was not into women’s sufferage. He’s holding by the whole mystical tradition of the Chassidim and the Zohar, and moderation you willnot find there: gentiles are either much less than us, or what we will eventually gain the powers of.
all that has happened is a disagreement, no one has complained yet
For the record, I’ve complained to him about you. There are a few characters who hang around here and Jewschool, apparently for no other purpose than fomenting disharmony - disagreement for the sake of confrontation. You’re one of them. You don’t like anything he says? Go start your own blog.
I come to blogs like these to hear the opinions of people with whom I share a similar world view. Disagreement is fine, but I’m sick of these constant attacks. To give you a concrete example - I despise Christian fundamentalists, I think they’re imbeciles and I find their beliefs obscene - but I don’t go over to their blogs and harass them. Instead, I talk about it with liberal Christians. If a fundie wanders over and starts to make trouble - then I tell him what I think. But I don’t go over to his place looking for confrontation - that’s just elementary politeness.
And I have to think that if you were secure in your beliefs, you wouldn’t be on the attack so often. Is Orthodoxy such a shaky edifice that it’s in danger of being toppled by one lone blogger?
gentiles are either much less than us, or what we will eventually gain the powers of
yoseph leib, could you say more about this?
While i agree that she sometimes gets anoying, i have to disagree with DK and cipher on letter her talk.
SHe seems to be making valid points no matter how much we disagree and think its wrong.
Cipher; You come to only here from people who agree with you? Why? (this isnt meant to be attacking) Personally i come to see how people will different views see different things (from the left to the right). to read only people who agree with me is boring and a waste of time (like that separate dancing thing DK
Also, people are always attacking Ann Coulter and you cant possibly believe that its because they are scared of her.
Simmy,
I think I have been pretty fair with Fran, considering she/he took responsibility for censoring me on Wikipedia, blocking my entries on Baruch Lanner (something I will fix at some point) on the NCSY page. For Fran to wave a free speech flag is quite inappropriate in light of that, don’t you think?
I hardly have a problem with people disagreeing with me, my one caveat besides name calling (which hasn’t happened often, and as much from Muslims and the far-Left as from Orthodox Jews) is that the disagreements are not for the sake of sabotage or to stymie discussion.
I am not banning Fran, I gave Fran a warning on a specific issue. I think Fran is here to work something out. That is usually why many of us blog, and why many of us visit blogs we disagree with.
Simmy, that’s not what I said. I said that disagreement is fine; it’s the attacks I can’t stand. And, for the most part, I don’t think she has valid points.
Actually, as an aside - I am afraid of Ann Coulter. I’m afraid of what she represents. She’s obviously borderline, perhaps even clinically psychotic, yet the right doesn’t care. They just let her talk, making absolutely no attempt (as far as I can see) to rein her in. As long as she brings in the ratings, which translate into dollars - that’s all they care about. I fear this because it’s the way we think now. It’s the depravity to which our society has sunk.
Plus the potential anti-Semitic/anti-Jewish feeling her latest remarks may engender.
DK, Cipher….i disagree but i hear where you guys are coming from
Btw DK, when i first read your post i misread it to read that you will have fran fixed at some point.
“Have your local orthodox commentators spayed or neutered”
Simmy, when did I write that?
Oh, it was a misread on your part — got it.
“Have your local orthodox commentators spayed or neutered�
Should we have bumper stickers made?
Sorry - that was probably inappropriate. Not meant to be nasty - just a lame attempt at humor!
“Orthodox” is a SLUR?!!!
Russian Orthodox Church calls itself(translating directly from Greek original) “Pravoslavnaya-THE ONLY TRUE-tzerkov(church).
Slur?!
BTW, cipher, check them out.
Afterwards you will think of the “fundies” and Ann Coulters as meek liberals.
DK, Rabbi Kook was no different from many contemprorary nationalists, who want their country for them, but respect, for example Jews and Israel.
Example of the Russian “Rabbi Kook” is Aleksandr Isaevich Solzhenitsyn.(Don’t believe in Ortho/Lubavich slander about his “antisemitism”; he was always friend of Jews, Israel and Judaism).
P.S. Solzhenitsyn also writes that the only true soul is Russian Soul.
Who cares?
No big deal.
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