Letter From Dark Light (Part III)
Guest Post by “Seth”
Part III: Seth Reviews The Checklist
One of your posts entitled “Checklist for Steve Brizel” asks several questions that I will do my best to answer.
“Is Hebrew Ulpan [language] taught sufficiently? How many levels? When is it taught? As part of the normal schedule, or during the nap break at midday? How many levels are offered? Are the “Bais Midrash” students encouraged to learn Hebrew as well?”
In my opinion, it is not taught sufficiently. It is offered twice a week for a total of 3 hours, which in my opinion is not nearly enough. It focused mainly on conjugating verbs and was somewhat helpful with grammar but did not go nearly far enough in giving us the skills we need to actually converse or to understand what we were reading. I picked up far more Hebrew taking taxis than I did in ulpan. It was not mandatory and most chose not to attend. It was only offered for 1st year students. Those beyond first year could not attend and had no ulpan of their own. Students in the Beis Medrash program did not have ulpan.
“Since this is a haredi yeshiva, and its curriculum Talmud intensive, is there an Aramaic Ulpan for these baal teshuvahs? If so, same questions as above.”
There was no Aramaic ulpan or Aramaic instruction of any sort. Which made learning Gemara [Talmud] next to impossible. Because we could not read it or understand it on our own, the Gemara shiurum consisted exclusively of a rabbi reading it to us and offering his commentary and interpretation.
“How is Modern Orthodoxy presented by the Rabbinical staff?”
It is seen as a start, as a springboard to become Charedi. It is seen as something you do “at first” to “get comfortable” with Yiddishkeit with the expectation that you will continue to grow into a charedi. This is where I noticed a huge difference between Ohr Somayach and Chabad since I had previously learned with a Chabad rabbi. Chabad feels that just because you are not ready to do everything doesn’t mean you should do nothing at all. If you’re not ready to go learn in kollel, it doesn’t mean you shouldn’t keep kosher or keep Shabbos. Ohr Somayach advocates an all-or-nothing approach. If you’re not ready to whole-heartedly adopt charediism, they don’t see a point in even trying to be a good Jew.
“How is Yeshiva University and Rabbi J. B. Soloveitchik presented by the rabbinical staff? Is Modern Orthodoxy presented as somehow insufficient and “not really” religious?”
Rabbi Soloveitchik was never discussed because we spent no time discussing philosophy or Jewish history, simply halacha. In fairness, there were a couple books by him in the library. Yeshiva University was looked down upon and students were not encouraged to attend. In fairness, ALL universities were looked down upon. When two students I knew who were taking a year off from law school to attend yeshiva announced that they would not be returning to law school, the rabbis congratulated them for making a great decision.
“Is scientific method accepted? What is O.S.’s position on evolution? What is the position on Rabbi Slifkin?”
Scientific method is certainly not accepted and neither is evolution. A rabbi tried to disprove evolution by saying that the heat of the flood when Noach was saved has altered the earth’s make-up to the point that carbon dating was impossible. One rabbi presented an idea from Talmud that a baby’s sex is determined after a certain number of days. This has been proven absolutely false by doctors. I tired to show him an article from a medical journal showing otherwise. He refused to read it. Another rabbi suggested that spending money on medical research is a waste because a cure for cancer will not come from scientific breakthrough but through prayer. He insisted that if we took that money and gave it to kollel families, we would get a cure for cancer much sooner.
“What is the position of Ohr Somayach on college studies for high school graduates? Does Ohr Somayach discourage or advocate postponement of college education to its students who have not yet attended or finished college?”
Absolutely. As I said, convincing people to drop out of law school was seen as a victory. Many students came for a year before they intended to go to college and have simply never left. I would guess that of the high school students who attend OS, less than half will go on to college and of the college students who take a year off to attend, less than half will ever go back.
“Is the western world taught as incomplete in terms of what it offers a traditional Jew, or is it presented as depraved in its entirety and engagement presented as something to be avoided? Does Rabbi Weinbach (the Rosh Yeshiva of Ohr Somayach) consider the secular world in its entirety an “environment of sin?”
Absolutely. I had one rabbi tell me that “nothing good” has ever come or ever will come out of secular society. I suggested that things like the automobile, airplane, the space program, the cure for polio, the progress made in treating illness were all pretty good things. He replied that it wasn’t worth it. That these things cost too much and that it may be fine for the goyim, but it’s not our place.
“Is poverty common among those recruits who are “successful” when they come from middle class backgrounds?”
Very much so. Many have given up careers with lots of money and now learn full time while their wives work a low-level job. They live in tiny, rundown apartments with 10 kids in 2 bedrooms. It’s heartbreaking, frankly to see.
“Is Kollel instead of a vocation advocated as preferable to advanced students?”
Not just advanced students, but almost all students. Because they discourage college and think it’s inappropriate to take any job where you might have to work with non-Charedim or be exposed to women, they rule out most occupations that most would actually want or where one could make any money. For those not considering kollel, they encourage them to take classes on how to be a schochet (ritual slaughterer).
“Are students encouraged to disengage from the world to the point of not even reading newspapers?”
Completely. I would estimate that less than 5 percent of students read a newspaper on even a weekly basis. I read three papers a day before arriving and this was amongst the hardest part of the transition. I was told that there was nothing in the newspaper I needed to read and that I wasn’t missing anything. Having an interest in anything other than yeshiva is discouraged. Because there is no internet on campus and it is not allowed in the apartments and because the charedi neighborhood does not sell secular newspapers, keeping in touch with the world is incredibly difficult. They say this is their goal. They think yeshiva should be about leaving the world behind and concentrating only on studying.
Earlier:
Seth’s Story: Introduction, Part 1, Part 2
Related: B’nai Niddahism, Returnees Welcome?
46 comments
DK,
I’d like to hear about what it was like when Seth decided to leave - did the rabbis try to coerce him into staying, was he threatened, etc?
Also - what is he doing now?
“Living hell”?
Thank God obviously no one in the room has any idea of what a “living hell” is.
Ron,
Any comment/defense on the actual specific allegations of fundamentalist behavior and attitudes raised in this chapter?
Who didn’t already know all this?
reader,
And that makes it all ok, because Seth is not reinventing the wheel?
Of course not. It’s dreadful, and I guess spreading the word helps. But it’s not like this is a breakthrough piece of investigative journalism (which Ohr Sameach et al could really use!).
“Who didn’t already know all this?”
The vast majority of liberal and secular Jewry whose youth are targeted by these predators.
“Living hell”…. “fundamentalist”… “predators”…. that’s why it’s not worth commenting on the substance, DK. Your rhetoric is so over the top that it is clear that an honest discussion of the issues is not on the agenda, at least here and now.
If you don’t want a right-wing yeshiva education, don’t go to Ohr Someach. I know innumerable people who did and are healthy and happy, and read the papers and do “normal” things after having had the intensive experience of changing their lives and focusing on a different kind of experience for months or years. Others, I don’t know, and probably became the sort of people not only you, but probably I (who am not any sort of official representative of the frum world) could barely stand to be around.
Seth, it seems, was able to walk unaided out of this “living hell,” out of the jaws of the “fundamentalist predators,” and lives to tell this (anonymous, like most brave muckrakers around here) tale. Or does Part IV detail his thrilling escape? Can’t hardly wait!
(Yawn.)
Anyone who wants to discuss the actual merits of doing mitzvos, rather than the straw men of mean old haredi body snatchers, should feel free to drop me a line, or something. Good Shabbos.
Ron,
OS is fundamentalist. This is not hyperbole, this is not over the top. They are absolutely quiescent fundamentalists.
“quiescent”
I don’t think you know what that means.
reader,
If you are here merely to insult, go away. Seriously, if that’s why you are here, just piss off, or I will remove you. I don’t have Failed Messsiah’s patience for that sort of thing.
This is your only warning.
I had lunch with a good friend this week who is a Reconstructionist and he regards all of Orthodoxy as fundamentalist.
DK, when you use the word fundamentalist, what do you mean? Do you agree with my friend that all of Orthodoxy is fundamentalist.
Um, okay, I’m not “reader” or anything, but I have to admit I also don’t understand how exactly it is you’re using the word “quiescent” here, DK.
I believe “fundamentalism” is an inappropriate term when applied to Judaism, and is borrowed for purposes of scaring unaffiliated Jews into viewing orthodox (or strictly orthodox) Jews as more akin to the (unjustly) maligned fundamentalist or, more generally, evangelical Christians that liberal Jews are terrified of.
In any event, the use of adjectives as a replacement for logical argument undermines your credibility. You and I joke that I am, after all, a “fundie” myself, but other people aren’t interested in engaging in discussion with people who seem to be insulting them with name-calling. Just a thought.
Mark asked,
“Do you agree with my friend that all of Orthodoxy is fundamentalist.”
No. That’s absurd. That makes no sense at all, not historically, not sociologically.
Traditional religions and communities are not fundamentalist. There have to be changes, significant ones. All the fundamentalist movements are contemporary radicalized movements, offshoots different than the traditional Jewish camps they originally stemmed/broke away from. For instance, the yeshiva movement, the “Bnai Torah” movement, was not founded until Velozhin in the 19th century, and even then was quite different than it became after WWII.
So too with Chassidic groups such as Satmar. They did not exist at all prior to the 17th century, and were also very different for the first three generations.
Traditional Judaism, like all “Orthodoxies,” are not inherently fundamentalist at all. There is a wide range of opinions, there is no demand for literalism, there is engagement with the secular world, even if on their own terms, there is acceptance of scientific method, and only God is worshipped, not rabbis. When the imprint of God conflicts with the interpretation of rabbis, the rabbi’s interpretation is rejected. Monotheism itself is kept more clearly by the MO than by the right-wing haredim. This is classic traditional Judaism. Rebbe worship in all its current forms is something different and relatively new, and not accepted by the traditional Jewish communities.
The Modern Orthodox do not go fundamentalist unless they get caught up in the activist Messianic Israel thing, which most American Jews do not.
Here you go, Ron and reader,
http://www.jcpa.org/cjc/cjc-heilman-s05.htm
I took a class with Dr. Heilman, and strongly recommend him to anyone interested in understanding the various strains of Jewish fundamentalism, usually divided between activist (like the settlers) and quiescent (like the B’nai Torah).
OS is quiescent.
i still want to harp a little on what ron asked…What is fundimentalist? a different interpretation of the torah than you?
To be very cheesy: “cant we all just get along?”
OS isnt forcing anyone to do anything, like one of the previous commentators said he could have just left. He didnt like it? Fine, but no one forced him to stay
Fran, read Heilman’s essay.
“OS isn’t forcing anyone to do anything”
Neither are the Moonies. They are still an awful organization. Stop pretending things are only a problem when they are forced. You don’t really believe that. No one here except hard-line libertarians believe that. And when people mislead, lie, and drive people to poverty and misery, even without force, it’s a problem. It’s not okay, Fran.
DK, FWIW my friend has a sociology undergraduate degree and a doctorate in statistics, He also is one of the top research biomedical statisicians at Sloane Kettering, so you won’t be able to box him in by playing the “DKs definitions are definitive” game. The definitions of terms change, so your historical comments won’t sway him either.
In his view the strict and relatively inflexible interpretation of the Torah makes all Orthodoxy fundamentalists compared to the other movements.
In the final analysis labeling and name calling makes your arguments weaker and your voice unfortunately becomes one of non-rationality.
“In his view the strict and relatively inflexible interpretation of the Torah makes all Orthodoxy fundamentalists compared to the other movements.”
Dr. Heilman is the leading authority on what differentiates traditional Judaism from Jewish fundamentalisms. I would refer your friend to his works, and see his response. Jews were mostly what we would call “Orthodox” throughout the ages, and though there were always fundamentalist groups which would arise, the bulk of religious Jewry were never what we would call “fundamentalist,” but rather, traditional.
DK- i dont know if u are ever going to be able to convince orthodox smart asses like Ron who go around playing with the semantics of the word -fundamentalist- while they go around saying that television is evil and that guys should not talk to girls.
SJ,
Ron never said those things. But the attempts to preempt a meaningful use of the term “fundamentalist” will be definitely employed by all black hat kiruvniks in order to attempt to shield the haredi-kiruv places from attack by placing Modenr Orthodoxy in front of them whenever possible.
Modern Orthodox Jews should note this, and not let them do that. They should move away from places like OS/Neve Yerushalayim. YU has already moved away from the latter institution, to their credit.
Ever wonder why Rabbi Shafran of Agudath Israel insists he doesn’t understand the so-called differentiation between ultra and Modern Orthodoxy? This is why. To protect the black hatters. To protect the haredim. Even when his organization has nothing but absolute contempt for the Modern Orthodox, and his people absolutely absolutely absolutely know and recognize there is a difference.
Here’s the definition of a cult, which everyone agrees the Unification Church (the Moonies) meets. Objectively speaking, no yeshiva, right-wing or otherwise, meets these criteria.
I don’t know how what I said in any implicates MO. It doesn’t. By the way, if you can find any MO rabbi who says he would prefer that Jews not keep Shabbos, kashrus and the laws of sexual morality rather than go to OS, I’d like to know his name. Anonymous statements don’t count.
Dr. Heilman’s intellectual dishonesty is well established, unfortunately. Even Marvin Schick“Canonist” and Harry Maryles.
Come on, DK. You’re not a member of a cult. You don’t accept doctrinaire statements uncritically. You a skeptic. I’m still waiting for you to overcome your bias on this issue and articulate a case that is there to be developed — without the name-calling, exaggeration and melodrama. You’re good enough, smart enough — and, damn it, people like you!
Great points, DK. It is so necessary that these arguments be made in the current environment. The fundamentalist in this country are on the run now, and hopefully Israel will be next. We have some very tough questions to face, and rationales based on myths have held sway for far too long.
DK, I don’t know why you’re getting all this flack.
It’s an interesting topic to me, and I assume that it would be to at least a fair number of your readers as well.
If some of your regular readers find it boring, or don’t find anything new in it, okay, you can’t please everyone all the time, but don’t let them get you off onto a semantic exercise.
Ron, I was NOT comparing this right-wing ultra-Orthodox fundamentalist groups to the Moonies. I was proving that just because a group doesn’t use force doesn’t mean everything is copasedek. Read Fran’s point and my counterpoint. That’s all.
And Marvin Schick doesn’t respect Dr. Heilman? Oh, my oh my, should I run for the hills now? Marvin Schick is a congenital apologist and dirty character assassin for every frum critic worth his weight. The fact that he hasn’t dismissed me as an “Orthodo-basher” is proof I haven’t hit the big leagues.
As for Harry Maryles, he doesn’t even claim intellectual dishonesty as you suggest, but only offers reasons why he feels Dr. Heilman’s book is “flawed.” He does say,
“Dr. Samuel Heilman is one of the foremost scholars of ethnic sociology, with a number of books on American Jewry and the Charedi world. His latest book “Sliding To the Right” has much to commend to the both the Charedi and Modern Orthodox ( MO) reader.”
And thank you for not tackling any of the substantial points in this series, and therefore conceding that Ohr Somayach is sersiouly problematic. When smart frummies don’t attack the points, but instead attack the tone, just like the not-so-smart frummies do, it is a concession that they don’t have much of a rebuttal.
“By the way, if you can find any MO rabbi who says he would prefer that Jews not keep Shabbos, kashrus and the laws of sexual morality rather than go to OS, I’d like to know his name.”
Any MO organization that sends secular and liberal Jews to Ohr Somayach should be exposed to the liberal and secular Jewish community they are serving, and they can explain to the secular and liberal Jewish parents why they are sending their youth to fundamentalist institutions.
Send our youth to the fundie places, you can go to kiruv in your own communities. Not ours. NO secular and liberal Jews want this sort of “derech” for their kids. Not a chance. Break their trust, lose their kids.
Ichabod Chrain, you wrote,
“If some of your regular readers find it boring, or don’t find anything new in it, okay, you can’t please everyone all the time, but don’t let them get you off onto a semantic exercise.”
They aren’t bored. They are nervous. This series is getting a lot of attention, and the more attention it gets, the worse it is for OS, and the frummies DO NOT WANT secular and liberal Jews to know what happens in OS and Neve Yerushalayim, what they stand for, or who works with them.
In his view the strict and relatively inflexible interpretation of the Torah makes all Orthodoxy fundamentalists compared to the other movements.
Mark,
There are Modern Orthodox people, both rabbis and laypersons, who view Torah in much the same way as do people whom one would define as theologically liberal. They see it as mythic, divine revelation expressed in human language, and subject to interpretation. I know an MO rabbi and a fellow who has a PhD in Biology who hold this view.
I agree (and I’ve said this to DK) that their numbers are shrinking, and that the Hareidi/Yeshivish subculture seems to be winning the battle to determine who gets to define “Orthodoxy”. However, I don’t think you can say that all of Orthodoxy is fundamentalist in nature.
Even among evangelical Christians, there are those who define themselves as progressive.
Right, so in other words, you can’t name such a MO rabbi. OK. Anyway, back to Ohr Someach (which you obviously did compare to the Moonies, DK — please), which I never attended (or really liked all that much). I’ll tell you, DK, one thing that I think has long been and still is both a weakness in the quality of the discourse, and something you will… like. I’m saving the “like” part.
The weakness is that you are, and at this point I have to believe it is intentional, freely mixing and matching the Israeli / haredi world and the American / yeshivish world. You’ve been called out on this time and time again, here and in particularly on Beyond BT, and you never, ever respond to it, at least not that I remember. It’s a huge gap in your analysis, because notwithstanding enclaves in the US that may look and sound very much like Bnei Brak, including the homes of individual American roshei yeshiva (though not the majority of their alumni) the vast majority of American yeshivish Jews — meaning non-hasidic, strictly observant, right-wing orthodox Jews — are much more assimilated, “normal” and economically well off then the cliche you rely upon would suggest. Not only that, but there is clearly a tacit understanding — and one that is becoming more and more explicit — that the Lakewood system is not normative, and that quite a lot of people aren’t going to take it any more. That leaves you to your much less compelling “Touro is a third-rate college” argument, which if I were you I wouldn’t want to lead with in the Forward — since most people go to third-rate colleges and since most college educations these days, regardless of the label attached, are pretty mediocre anyway.
The reason you will “like” this point, DK, if for once you will only actually deal with it, is that it is a huge gap of honesty in the American RWOJ worldview, which from the HaModia / Yated Ne’eman / Artscroll / Jewish Observer perspective, posits a seamless haredi world. I’ve been arguing for a while that this is simply a lie, as you know. But right now it’s a lie that works very well for you, rhetorically, because it enables you to avoid the elitist “go to Penn instead of Touro” argument and focus on the “they’re turning everyone into baldy-haircutted yeshiva rats.” I hope, however, that sooner or later you confront the more nuanced truth, instead.
Now a little about “fundamentalism,” and having made my point I will grant you the term rather than be accused again of avoiding the issues. I don’t think TV is evil. (By the way, SJ, you can address me directly. I won’t put a spell on you.) But enough of a percentage of what comes on the TV is evil, and a larger percentage is well is so inconsistent with basic — not right-wing, but down-the-middle — orthodox Jewish mores that I don’t want one in my house. Big deal. Is that the hill the “anti-fundie” forces want to die on — how much we right-wingers are missing out by not giving our families access to Howard Stern, Paris Hilton and Pee Wee Herman? Boy, do I feel ethically humbled by that.
In terms of “guys talking to girls,” look, it’s a matter of degree. The Shulchan Aruch governs these matters. If MO rabbis say that you don’t have to follow the SA, then they’re frauds, that’s all. Now I think it’s really healthy that guys know how to talk to girls, as to any other fellow person, but to pretend it’s not a slippery slope for young singles to interact in unsupervised environments is just the height of bad faith. The Torah recognizes that every female - male interaction has a sexual element to it, while here we pretend that it doesn’t, act outraged at the benighted suggestion that it does, and meanwhile plan how to seduce the girl we’ve always just been nodding friends with as soon as she breaks up with our co-worker, if not sooner. I mean, please — we all know what’s going on out there. (Some things some of us are glad we don’t know.)
In fact, connections of unexpected intensity can be kindled in the most unexpected ways, among the least likely of people. It takes very little. So we draw the line at very little. It’s a rational choice for a society to make.
Now, the track record of the vaunted modern orthodoxy in the premarital sex and other related adventures department is notorious, and more or less open — and, by the way, is one reason that intellectually honest and sincerely religious MO and traditional parents are far less horrified than you would like to think about the “extreme” attention to modesty in the RW world. Because their kids are having sex, they’re “getting in trouble,” their brilliant plans for elaborate Ivy League careers are at stake because of where just one-half of one-percent of those friendly, flirty conversations on Jewel Avenue or at the party at that club in Princeton have led.
Orthodox Jews believe this is an awful tragedy, just as it is whenever any scriptural mitzvah is transgressed, but of course the consequences of those adventures are potentially life-altering. They’re a lot more of a “living hell” for some of those involved, potentially, than anything “Seth” has described. And if you don’t believe that a meaningful percentage of MO — and RW — boys and girls alike have left a life of doing mitzvos by virtue of their involvement in premarital sex and the whole scene built around it altogether, you’re the one who’s avoiding this issue.
Halacha-based Judaism has made a value judgment about that possibility. Yours doesn’t even think it’s a problem. But serious and concerned orthodox parents of many stripes don’t share your unconcern, and they’re willing to swallow a lot of the “hell” that “Seth” and you couldn’t to instill something like traditional sexual morality in their children.
I don’t expect too many people reading this to acknowledge an ounce of truth in it, but that’s the story from this side.
Right, so in other words, you can’t name such a MO rabbi.
Ron, I’m sorry - were you addressing me? If so, are you agreeing with me that you can’t label an MO rabbi a fundamentalist, or are you criticizing me for not revealing his name?
No, I’m addressing DK, Cipher. Now, as to your question, I guess we’re just generalizing here and using terminology that really does not want to go where we are taking it. You know many people in the MO community consider the rabbi par excellence of modern orthodoxy to be Rav Soloveitchik. In fact I think it’s fair to say that you would consider his conception of halachic living to be, for all intents and purposes, so little different from what you call fundamentalism on the “right” as to render the distinctions trivial.
He had, hashkofically, far more in common with the leaders of the American right wing of his time, whom he joined as a member of the Agudah until he resigned, than with the leaders of Edah. Wouldn’t you agree?
Ron,
You are demanding that I differentiate between various ultra-Orthodox camps, when the ultra-Orthodox themselves publicly do not, even though I do, in fact, differentiate between Left-wing ultra-Orthodox and Right-wing Ultra-Orthodox all the time.
I am complaining here about Ohr Somayach, which is a fundamentalist house of misery both in, say, Monsey, and yes, I grant it is worse in Jerusalem. So? You want extra fundie points for the Israel branches? You got it. But it is still fundie here in the U.S. Absolutely.
As for your point about why Touro is better than the Ivy Leagues, and really any honest MO would agree, well, I can assure you that most secular Jews would not. And if the MO kiruv orgs push their kids there, they must be exposed, and they will find they have doors closed in their faces and all you people can do kiruv in Teaneck and Monsey instead. Seriously, keep up the bullshit. Who are you dealing with? Secular and liberal Jews don’t care what you or anyone else says the shulchan aruch implicitly dictates about mixed colleges. Rabbi Caro heard it from an angel right? Which one was it, again? Which angel dictated him all that Jewish law? I always forget which angel, Ron.
My point, Ron, is that MO can always choose to be as unpalatable as the Left-wing ultra-Orhtodox haredim in terms of access to teens. They absolutely have that option, and some, like the gentleman emerging from jail and his long-time protectors like Rabbi Willig of YU and Rabbi Matt Tropp now of…oh, that would be Aish HaTorah, wouldn’t it? Anyway, we can always go the more antagonist route. Always an option. No protest from me. Preach Touro. Work with Dark Light. Stay buddies with Rabbi Matt Tropp of Aish HaTroah.
But you don’t speak for the MO, Ron. You speak for Aish. And I don’t hear what you are preaching coming from the MO camp, now, do I?
I think they will succeed in doing the smart thing, and moving away from the underachievement preached by the LEFT-wing ultra-Orthodox Jews.
It is your camp that will not be so smart, and will be denied access to teens, and will have every move forward blocked and challenged; those grubby haredi-kiruv fingers pried off of mainstream Jewry, one finger pulled back at a time.
Ron,
I don’t think I know enough about it to have an opinion. My understanding has been that Rav Soloveitchik was acknowledged as the intellectual leader of Modern Orthodoxy. And I realize that he probably would have been to the right of today’s Left Wing or Open Orthodoxy.
Although, I do recall reading something by one of his former students, who went to visit him just before his death. It might have been Yitz Greenburg, but I can’t remember for certain. The Rav, commenting on the changes in Orthodoxy that Sam Heilman has written about, changes that were already beginning to take place, told him, “Don’t let them move you to the right.”
“He had, hashkofically, far more in common with the leaders of the American right wing of his time, whom he joined as a member of the Agudah until he resigned.”
Yeah, Ron. And what a shock he resigned. And funny how the Agudah’s house organ the Jewish Observer didn’t see how much in common he had when they pissed on his grave after his passing.
Don’t confuse your respect for The Rav with the Agudah’s, Ron. Be careful, your independent thinking is seeping through, even as you assiduously try to play the partisan defender.
Cipher, I don’t know the story you are speaking of, but I believe Rabbi Soloveitchik was far too sick to have given any sort of such advice on his death bed. If you can find a source for this, please provide.
And what a shock he resigned.
This I didn’t know -
And funny how the Agudah’s house organ the Jewish Observer didn’t see how much in common he had when they pissed on his grave after his passing.
and I think I knew about this, but I’d forgotten.
I believe Rabbi Soloveitchik was far too sick to have given any sort of such advice on his death bed. If you can find a source for this, please provide.
I think it was in one of those books about the conflicts among American Jews that have come out in recent years, such as American Judaism and Jew vs. Jew. I’ll try to find it; give me some time.
DK, you might also ask Harry Maryles. He might have heard the story, and he may remember who was involved.
Anonymous statements don’t count.
I pretty much agree with you about OS. However you yourself dad make comments about unnamed rabbis who said better to support kollel families then to give for research, and other such comments. Name names, you will sound more realistic….. Avi
Avi,
My guest poster did not want to name names, because he did not want his identity known. I would personally name names, believe me.
>> how much we right-wingers are missing out by not giving our families access to Howard Stern, Paris Hilton and Pee Wee Herman? Boy, do I feel ethically humbled by that.
Howabout Star Trek? I am not geekish about it but I do enjoy it and I pity anyone who can’t find it within themselves to enjoy the stories that Star Trek has to tell.
>> enough of a percentage of what comes on the TV is evil
Star Trek? Star Wars? Die Hard? Lethal Weapon? Back to the Future? Batman? Superman? Smallville? Spiderman? Transformers? Stargate SG-1 & Atlantis? Batlestar Gallactica? CSI? Hercules & Xena? Saturday morning cartoons?
>> By the way, SJ, you can address me directly. I won’t put a spell on you.
ok. PUTZ!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
be careful of what you wish for Ron! lol XD
This is Ron’s great talmudic reasoning:
“Howard Stern is bad. Therefore, Batman and Superman should be banned.”
how much we right-wingers are missing out by not giving our families access to Howard Stern, Paris Hilton and Pee Wee Herman? Boy, do I feel ethically humbled by that.
If you have a tv no one forces you to watch that garbage. But you are also missing out on National geographic, the history channel all the science channels the biography channel and numerous documentaries that make life the exciting thing that it is. Not to mention that one can get a degree with distance learning. Of course if you want to remain ignorant just stick to learning torah……Avi
“Howard Stern is bad. Therefore, Batman and Superman should be banned.�
Batman - I don’t know. A guy who goes out every night in black spandex…
Reder, I coined the term “BT Archipelago”, borrowing from Nobel Prize-winnig book of the greatest Russian writer in 20th century and very HIGH ADMIRER(probably biggest sincerely among non-Jews) of Orthodox Judaism.
Kiruv-ruined marriges-underemployment-DEATH, like in the case of Gideon Gary Busch, when he “prayed with a hammer”(???).
9/11, terrorism put that story in a back burner but that had to be a moment of cessation of all “kiruv”.
It’s simply not working anymore.
“Dark Light” rep in Chicago has to go to RUSSIAN “outreach” because nodody AMERICAN and EDUCATED comes on fis fairy tales about “self-esteem”.
From that(Solovky)to the misery of Vorkutlag.
Great A.I. Solzhenitsyn is entered in a unique and peculiar discourse.
I came upon this discussion late; If no one else will toss this guy a bone, then I will when I say that I agree with him that the best laid plans can be torn asunder in the hurdy-gurdy of our modern, sexually-adventurous world. Lets’ give him that one.
Sure, there are kids who smoke pot, sleep around and in general piss on all that nice money and privilege that their parents so carefully laid up for them.
So, yes, I see those parents panicking and sending little Avrham and Katie off to some Ultra-Orthodox “college”. These kids are young and impressionable. Soon they are shaving their heads and dropping out of school altogether….ooops, Mom and Dad, that wasn’t the plan, was it?
Well, living in a free society with access to information and free-will has its price. There are no easy and pat answers. And those who crave them will find themselves prey to the likes of the good rebbe who so vigorously defends his positions as not having the flavor of fundamentalism, which we all know is bad, right?
We need to grow up and start taking responsibility for our kid’s values and stop shipping them off to strangers for fixing and then getting up in arms when they come back all weird.
leslie, most of these baal teshuvah kids are not sent to these places by their parents. They are often picked up in Israel by a sophisticated network of recruiters.
Mr. Rodgers says “Boys and Girls, can you spell CULT?” I guess they have to vie for real-estate in front of the airport terminals with the Moonies and the Krishna’s, lol. Tickets for God, always popular with the wayward kinder. Maybe carrying Mace is the solution. But again, I go back to my arguement: the values of the children need to be instilled by the parents, which in turn, will innoculate the kids from becoming the prey of fanatics and opportunists. But doesn’t private religious education cost money? I can’t believe this isn’t with the consent and knowledge of the parents. It seems there’s much more to this than meets the eye…
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