Only Haredism is the Answer for Happiness
The following story isn’t pretty. It is the nauseating, high-pitched, nasal self-congratulatory squeals of glee of frummies stroking and admiring themselves. But I think we need to take a look, at least a little bit, as there are some important lessons over here.
First of all, how do the haredi-kiruvniks justify their paths to poverty, such as Dark Light? Two ways.
1) They pretend all secular Jews are fabulously wealthy and have everything
2) They pretend that everyone is miserable from vapid materialism
These are the two implicit justifications for sending secular Jews into the misery and poverty of right-wing ultra-Orthodoxy.
Rabbi Meir Goldberg wrote in 5 Towns Jewish Times (and Hamodia, the official newspaper of the fahfrumpt) that,
Perhaps the one thing that the secular world seeks more than anything else is happiness. They search and search, yet they cannot seem to find it. Americans spend millions each year pursuing happiness. Some wait on line for days (yes, they really camp out around an electronics store) waiting to buy the new iPhone. Others insist on driving the fanciest cars or going on the most exotic vacations. Yet, when all is said and done, we live in one of the unhappiest societies in history, where divorce is rampant and children who have every conceivable material advantage turn to drugs to escape from the tremendous void that they feel. Perhaps we should not expect anything more from a society that considers the convenient use of a MasterCard as “priceless.�?
Years ago, when the teshuvah movement was in its infancy, frum Jews often thought it strange that a non-frum person would want to become a baal teshuvah. After all, they have no restrictions and can have everything. Rabbi Dovid Orlofsky [Editor’s note: for more on Orlovsky, formerly of NCSY who now works at Dark Light, see Failed Messiah’s article on how he tarred and feathered Rabbi Slifkin in a most sleazy fashion], a well-known mekarev from Ohr Somayach, told a story of a woman that once approached him: “Rabbi,”she said. “Do you know why you are such a threat to me? It’s not any of your classes or talks that threaten me. Rather, here I am a secular Jew, unrestricted in anything. I can do whatever I want. You are an observant Jew with many varied requirements and restrictions. Yet you are clearly enjoying life more than me.�?
You see? When you throw a Jew to Dark Light or Neve Yerushalayim…he/she is CLEARLY going to be happier than when he camped out (for days!) to secure some new electronic device, which most of them do.
Name calling regretted and removed by site owner.
48 comments
What about all those frummy youths though equipped to the peyos with electronic gadgets, going to Atlantic City over weekends while telling their parents they are actually upstate, while in Israel hanging out at the beach in Eilat - clad in denims and baseball caps while trying to look insuspicious? I love my frum friends dearly, but happier they are not.
Non-hareidi Jews are fabulously wealthy and have everything? So now you tell me. Is it too late to sign up?
I do not agree with some of what you wrote, BUT - that essay by the rabbi made me want to hurl.
It is true that Reform Judaism is empty and pointless - it’s a glorified social club, and that’s about it. If you don’t have enough money to play ball with the big boys, there’s no point in even going - so most, the majority, don’t because they aren’t rich. They want to hang on to their kid’s heritage but can’t do the charity social circuit. They’re empty and hopeless. Anybody looking for a relationship with God isn’t going to find it there - and yes, I have been there, thank you. The rich ones and the poor ones want all the benefits of having a covenant but none of the responsibilities. And something for nothing is worth what you pay for it, after all.
That being said, I didn’t see much happiness in the cheredi community, either. Anyone who claims the cheredi community is all bliss and sunshine hasn’t been in one, either. They’re just as empty and pointless, in their own way. The woman I knew were mostly devoid of joy and spirit - they had long since given up trying to find fulfillment and were simply in survival mode, making it through another day. They were bewildered because they all thought it must be their own faults they were not happy, since we all KNOW that the cheredi lifestyle is one of joy and fulfillment, don’t we. No one dares admit their true feelings, because it shows something’s “wrong” with them.
That is what the two extremes of Judaism are - pretty on the outside, ugly on the inside.
The generalizations in the article linked to are no worse than the generalizations in these comments.
Ron,
People should know the absurdity of the general haredi kiruv mentality towards the secular world before letting these vampires on college campuses or worse, into our public schools for “cultural” programming.
I have nothing against your reprinting the articles and commenting on them. I agree with you that people make silly and unsustainable generalizations. I just think you and your commenters are making them, too, just mostly the opposite ones.
You’re right that in contradistinction, however, we don’t really have to worry about anything that’s said here actually affecting anyone!
Ron, you never know.
It’s just jealousy, Dk
If you were really enjoying life, you would be in kollel instead of wasting your time blogging.
Mohammed, manyfold are the paths to happiness.
DK, since when was I talking about charedim in this article. I wrote frum Jews. That includes jews of all stripes. My point was very clear, that to have happiness in life, one usually needs to have meaning and purpose. To point out that there are frum Jews who are materialistic and unhappy is to point out the obvious. I don’t claim that all frum Jews are happy, but usually the unhappy ones are chasing materialism.
As for your rant about haredi kiruv vampires, would it make you feel better to know that I encourage some of my students to go to non charedi institutions sometimes?
DK, why all of the cursing and personal insults? If you want people to take you seriously, wouldn’t it be better if you made your points without all of the extra curricular Jerry Springer-like behavior?
Ron while I did generalize about the secular world, I would say that statistics bear out my point. Did you know that the US is 23rd in ranking of happiness by country (this was featured on 60 miutes some weeks back) even though we are by far the most wealthy? The most widely prescribed drugs in this country are for depression. Over 50% of college students suffer depression during their college years while 10% will be suicidel. 34% of married women cheat on their husbands AFTER they have children, not to mention how many cheat before, or how many husbands are cheating. Is this enough proof? Is this silly and unsustainable proof? Nobody claims that the charedi world is all great, but it sure outshines the secular world.
Meir Goldberg, you wrote,
“As for your rant about haredi kiruv vampires, would it make you feel better to know that I encourage some of my students to go to non charedi institutions sometimes?”
A little, I guess.
“DK, why all of the cursing and personal insults? If you want people to take you seriously, wouldn’t it be better if you made your points without all of the extra curricular Jerry Springer-like behavior?
There was no cursing in this post, so your accusation is strange, and perhaps, revealing. Once again, you seem unable to distinguish between secular Jewish culture and the most depraved aspects of LCD (lowest common denominator) secular TV culture. This unreasonable conflation is rampant among frum writers.
“Over 50% of college students suffer depression during their college years”
Why? Because they are shopping? Or because young people at that age have existential angst over what to do with their lives?
“Nobody claims that the charedi world is all great, but it sure outshines the secular world.”
But there is no one secular world. That is your misunderstanding and your dishonesty. You are dishonest to call something the “secular world” and draw from whichever aspect of American culture you want, even if its readers/viewers are not particularly Jewish, or not Jewish at all.
And incidentally, your answer that any charedim who AREN’T happy are unhappy because they are materialistic–that is to say, essentially, not really frum, is circular logic.
“There was no cursing in this post, so your accusation is strange,”
You cursed at Rabbi Orlofsky on this post.
“Once again, you seem unable to distinguish between secular Jewish culture and the most depraved aspects of LCD (lowest common denominator) secular TV culture. This unreasonable conflation is rampant among frum writers.”
I wasn’t talking about secular culture when I compared your posts with all of the insults and cursing in it, to Jerry Springer. I was talking only of your blog. The fact that you are so hateful shows that you aren’t secure in your beliefs, or else you would let logic speak for itself.
“Why? Because they are shopping? Or because young people at that age have existential angst over what to do with their lives?”
My point exactly. Most of them have very little direction, purpose or meaning in life that offers little more than eat, drink and be merry.
“But there is no one secular world. That is your misunderstanding and your dishonesty. You are dishonest to call something the “secular world” and draw from whichever aspect of American culture you want, even if its readers/viewers are not particularly Jewish, or not Jewish at all.”
The statistics I cited were drawn from a cross section of America, not just one particular cultural branch. In outlook, non orthodox Jews (and a lot of orthodox ones as well) aren’t that different from the rest of this country.
“My point exactly. Most of them have very little direction, purpose or meaning in life that offers little more than eat, drink and be merry.”
That is a gross exaggeration of what happens at college, particularly in the most competitive colleges. And do tell us, how are these people you send to yeshiva and seminary — including the haredi ones, which discourage secular studies — supposed to support themselves? Or need they not support themselves, since that would be “materialistic”?
“The statistics I cited were drawn from a cross section of America, not just one particular cultural branch. In outlook, non orthodox Jews (and a lot of orthodox ones as well) aren’t that different from the rest of this country.”
It depends. You want to look at them in a binary manner…frum vs. non-frum. this is hardly an exhaustive way to view the Jewish population. Do you agree?
Rabbi Goldberg, may I ask, how do you define depression? Neurological depressions are caused by chemical imbalances in the brain; the predisposition is hereditary, not culturally induced, and can be supported by a lack of vitamin D as a result of lack of exposure to natural sunlight (lack of exposure to sunlight among pregnant women has also been shown to increase the risk of a innate proneness to schizophrenia). Psychological depressions are usually triggered by traumatizing events, which aren’t only confined to the secular world. I’ve got many frum friends, and I see depressive tendencies among them just as among secular people, just that in the secular world, there seems to be a wider acceptance of professional treatment of depressions. Also, I’d like to know, how do you tackle the issue of suicides and suicidal tendencies among frum people, particularly young ones? Also, how come 86th Street in Brooklyn, Century21 in Manhattan as well as Macy’s and other (upscale) department stores seem to be the safest places to bump into literally crowds of frum people from frum neighbourhoods, which are, BTW, not shopping for the necessities of daily life. Certain streets in Borough Park appear like a catwalk of vanities to me. I’m aware matters are different in Monsey, but the inclination to shopping especially among womenfolks apparently isn’t determined by religious affiliation but opportunity (as in accessibility of stores) and credit card balance. As for having little purpose in life, many of my friends formerly in yeshiva have had a tough time getting into the job market as they often lacked the skills businesses asked of them
(including foremostly a lack of English skills); the word has been spreading, and I see more and more bochurim getting anxious about their future. The list can be continued endlessly, but I hope you understan that young frum people are not so much different from other young people. BTW, there are also many that do drugs, go to strip clubs etc. If you care, go to Atlantic City over a weekend and see how many bochurim are running around there that have told their parents they’re upstate / in Brooklyn for the weekend. Those guys determine the lowest forms of secular enjoyment - the most condemned ones - to be the most desirable, but those forms of enjoyment are not what average secular people pursue.
“In outlook, non orthodox Jews (and a lot of orthodox ones as well) aren’t that different from the rest of this country.”
Actually, what you said makes even less sense. How do you define” outlook”? Is there one “outlook”? One dividing line to this “outlook” which takes place somewhere in the level of frumkeit?
“Once again, you seem unable to distinguish between secular Jewish culture and the most depraved aspects of LCD (lowest common denominator) secular TV culture.”
Let’s be honest- who creates the secular tv culture?
“That is a gross exaggeration of what happens at college, particularly in the most competitive colleges. And do tell us, how are these people you send to yeshiva and seminary — including the haredi ones, which discourage secular studies — supposed to support themselves? Or need they not support themselves, since that would be “materialistic”?”
DK, take your head out of the sand. Of course students study and study hard, but with the average student taking about four classes a semester there’s so much time for everything else. Perhaps that’s why the average student sleeps with 11 partners during their years in college. For a somewhat sensationalized fictional account of the collegiate experience read Tom Wolfe’s “I am Charlotte Simmons”. He studied the American college scene before writing the book.
As far as secular studies, most of the blogosphere is incredibly dishonest on this issue. I, as well as most of my current crop of Kiruv colleagues who have gone onto campus over the last five years do not have a problem with students getting a secular education. As a matter of fact, Machon Shlomo, to which we encourage our students to apply, encourages it’s students not to learn more than 2 years (with exceptions), after which they are encouraged to futher their education and/or get a job so they can make a salary required to support a family. Ohr Somayach in Monsey has programs which allow students to go to College part time while attending Yeshiva. A student who went to Aish Passaic asked me if he should further his education or become a kiruv Rabbi. I told him I wasn’t sure since a BT needs to be financially independant, much more so than a ffb who is more likely to have a financial base of support from family. There are plenty of Ohr Somayach alumni who do quite well financially. There are plenty who go back to school after they are done. I would encourage students who want to further their studies to commute to school and be firmly planted in a frum environment while going to Yeshiva for several hours a day. The Lander college is a great option. It’s funny how people on this blog claim that the charedi world is at the same time encouraging poverty and too materialistic (which it certainly is, I am also to blame in this area). Which one is it DK?
“I, as well as most of my current crop of Kiruv colleagues who have gone onto campus over the last five years do not have a problem with students getting a secular education.”
Oh, how opened minded of you. And isn’t that because you would be promptly booted if you were found on campus encouraging people to drop out. Are the JLE people at Ohr Somayach, Jerusalem aware of this 5 year old policy? And in the off chance they have a different policy (WHICH THEY DO) do you send people to the JLE?
“As a matter of fact, Machon Shlomo, to which we encourage our students to apply”
Where else do you encourage people to apply? Ohr Somayach, Jerusalem and Neve Yerushalayim, perhaps?
“Ohr Somayach in Monsey has programs which allow students to go to College part time while attending Yeshiva.”
Yes — Community College and Pace — and most in others were in programs PRIOR to going to OS. Students are ABSOLUTELY encouraged to be downwardly mobile at OS, Monsey. In a major, major way, beginning with Rabbi Braun, the mashgiach, throughout their staff.
You either don’t know what you are talking about, or you are being intentionally misleading.
The Lander college is a great option.
Third Tier Touro is a “great option” for Jews who speak English as a second language or close to. Not for baalei teshuvas.
Perhaps that’s why the average student sleeps with 11 partners during their years in college.
Which college, and do they offer adult ed, night classes, and/or part-time enrollment?
Sarah, you are oversimplfying depression by stating that people get depressed only from neurological or traumatic causes. See here: http://www.suite101.com/articl.....on/39791/2
and many other articles which would dispute your claim. Depression happens for many reasons. The fact that charedim also suffer depression doesn’t disprove my point. The fact is they are less prone to depression because of a sense of meaning and purpose in life and many other factors, including a stronger family, they are less likely to use drugs, less likely to be sexually active outside of the context of marriage, etc.
The fact that charedim, especially in the NY area are materialistic also doesn’t disprove my point. We all know the charedi world is way too materialistic (see several good articles by Jonathon Rosenbloom on this subject recently). I myself struggle in this area as most of us do. But let me copy and paste a response to an email I got from a woman who had similar issues with my article as you had:
Thank you for taking the time to read and critique my little essay. I’d like to clarify.
It was evident from the tone and context that I was commenting on the general state of our society not specific individuals. Certainly there are many individual secular Jews and non Jews who are deep, spiritual, kindly, etc. But that isn’t the general tone of Western society. I think that just about anyone who lives in our world would agree with that. My mother works for my uncle’s company, The Harry Walker Speakers Agency. They represent the top speakers in the world. She often comments that the more intellectual speakers grumble about the lack of speaking engagements that they get. She has to explain to them that most of the groups who book speakers (many, if not most of them secular Jewish groups) only want comedian/entertainment/Hollywood types. Not people with any intellectual depth. Perhaps that is why so many Westerners turn to Buddhism to fill the spiritual void in their lives.
As for the point that you brought up about us all pursuing happiness, true we all do. But for very different reasons and in very different ways. General society pursues material happiness for it’s own sake, because they think that it will give them satisfaction. This is a Western value. (Even the movie “The Pursuit of Happyness - sic, is about the man’s drive to gain material wealth, although he displays numerous good traits along the way.) Jewish people are supposed to pursue this type of happiness as a means to a greater, spiritual end. Too often we don’t and we end up caught in the rat race like everyone else. One only needs to drive around the more prominent religious communities to see this. However, as a whole, the idealism, spirituality, kindness, charity, etc in the religious community dwarfs the secular communities. In Lakewood, where I live, there are pages and pages of lists of gemachs (free loan societies) which offer everything from chairs to fake flowers to humidifiers and everything in between. There are more than 35 money gemachs. This in a community of 7500 families half of whom are learning in kollel. A poor teenager from Israel once told me that when he comes to Lakewood to raise money for his wedding, he comes out of the homes feeling so good about himself. People don’t just give him money, they smile at him, offer a drink, say a kind word. Do you know how many millions of charity dollars go to different causes on the day of Purim alone? This not only from millionaires but from working class stiffs. So many young people forgo material success to pursue a kollel lifestyle which presents numerous financial struggles. Where do you find this in general society? Of the hundreds of students on campus that I know, only two have gone to the Peace Corps or its equivalent. Is everything honkey dorey in the frum community? Of course not. As you state, we are slow to own up to our shortcomings. But in terms of spirituality, depth, etc, it isn’t even close. As I stated, there are many great individuals who are secular doing much great work. But as a whole, “they don’t hold a candle” to what’s going on in communities such as Lakewood, Far Rockaway, Monsey, etc.
“In Lakewood, where I live”
uh huh.
DK, please don’t be rude and strident. As a fellow human being all I ask for is some common courtesy, or is an honest open debate not enough? It’s your site, you can do what you want, but I’m asking you to be civil.
We woudn’t be botted out for encouraging people to go to Yeshiva instead of Rutgers.
This 5 year old “policy” isn’t a policy. We simply recognize that most bt’s aren’t cut out for the kollel lifestyle.
I encourage different people to apply to different places, it depends on each individuals nature. Some to MS, Aish, OS, Shappels,Neve. Some have gone to hesder yeshivot.
And why would someone ’s “individual nature” — who is in college — be better attuned to Neve or Ohr Somayach, Israel — which seek to drop out of school and study in yeshvia/seminary full-time?
And why would you send them to Ohr Somayach,, Monsey - -which at best — seeks them to continue their education only part-time?
And feel free to answer any of the questions I asked in my earlier comment which you chose to ignore.
Aight DK, I think you understand where I’m coming from. It may be best to continue this discussion in another context since right now, we have made our points clear. If you would be interested, I’d like to extend an invitation to meet in person sometime. You are welcome to email me if you’d like.
You and the others aren’t going to be able to hide from these questions forever, Meir. People listen more and more. It is hard to hide who you really are from people who have been inside, isn’t it, Meir?
Huh??
Then answer the question.
Why would someone ’s “individual nature” — who is in college — be better attuned to Neve or Ohr Somayach, Israel — which seek to drop out of school and study in yeshvia/seminary full-time?
And why would you send them to Ohr Somayach, Monsey - -which at best — seeks them to continue their education only part-time?
1. DK meets Meir
2. DK apologizes profusely about “the way things get” online
3. Meir showers DK with the kind of love you can only find in kiruv orgs and jews for jesus “minyans”
4. DK agrees that maybe he was “a bit too harsh.”
5. DK decides to go to a “Torah Codes” class “with an open mind.”
6. DK enrolls for a semester at Aish.
7. DK is not seen or heard from for six years
8. In 2014, Reb Dovid Kelsey, father of eight yeshiva bachurs, emerges from his Lakewood Kollel to pen an op-ed in the Jewish Press about how “higher education” leads men to un-Torah-like compulsive masturbation and women to general whoredom.
9. Moshiach!
No, no. I wrote that which Yeshiva they go to depends on their nature. OS in Monsey is also a good option. There have been many successful people who have received a part time BA.
So you admit that on campus, where you recruit, you send people to both yeshivas and seminaries that seek the following:
1) (Neve and OS Jerusalem) — Student ideally drops out of current full-time college forever.
2) (OS, Monsey) — Student drops out of full-time schdule for part-time schedule, or switches to less competitive part-time college.
Correct?
Why are you allowed on campus? Do the Hillels work with you? Do they know what you are doing?
We send students to all types of programs including those you mentioned. It may not be appropriate for many students to drop out of or discontinue college before graduating, that depends on the student.
How often is it “appropriate”? And how many times — through the yeshivas/seminaries you recruited them to–have they dropped whether it is or isn’t appropriate?
That depends on each individual. Almost every time that someone went to Yeshiva full time, it was only after they finished their BA.
Meir, why should secular and liberal Jews rely on a Lakewood guy for what is and isn’t “appropriate”?
How about we come into Lakewood and decide when it is and isn’t appropriate for someone to “learn” full-time instead of going to college?
Rabbi Goldberg, as a matter of fact, my profession required that I studied psychology and out of personal interest and out of friendship with a professor of neurology, I’ve learnt more about depressions. People commonly mistake bad moods for depressions while real depressions can be and need be professionally determined. The professionals to do this are neurologists and psychiatrists as they are the only ones properly qualified for that matter.
Now, were I to run an independent empirical study on happiness among young people in the frum and the secular world, I’d be surprised if the results were much different. I may drag angst of the future out a bit by making young people believe they’re doing something good for their soul, but the latest when they need to start covering their own bills, reality hits them hard. 80% of US Americans consider themselves religious; most don’t drop out of school / their usual life for that sake. As for drugs, they’re going strong in the frum world; just ask the Israeli police.
DK, will you run an audition?
Sarah/froylein, don’t you know the secret? Trusting in the Gedolim is true happiness.
The fact is they are less prone to depression because of a sense of meaning and purpose in life and many other factors, including a stronger family, they are less likely to use drugs, less likely to be sexually active outside of the context of marriage, etc.
Rabbi Goldberg, I have the opinion of a Jewish social worker, who deals with the Hareidi community, that unhappiness, depression and domestic problems are just as prevalent within that community as they are within “secular” society. The Hareidim are simply less likely to acknowledge it and to seek professional help.
I would also submit that European countries are far more “secular” than we are. As a whole, their societies run much more smoothly than ours does, and they may be happier; I’m not aware that they’re any unhappier.
Jeff, there aren’t any statistics on the frum community. We can only go by what we see empirically. In my experience of living in a frum environment and also of working with college students what I see is what I opined, combined with the stats I saw regarding the general society.
Your point about Europe is well taken. I would respond that there are a multitude of factors that go into determining happiness, including the “hasameach bechelko factor” and the “One who has a hundred wants two hundred” factor. Meaning that Europeans are somewhat less materialistic (maybe because in socialist countries money is harder to come by, not sure) in that they don’t have as much of a consurmerist outlook in comparison to us Americans.
I would also say that in the more materialistic frum communities in the US (I don’t want to name names) I would not at all be surprised if what your social worker friend said was true. You see my point is not that being frum automatically makes one happier, less materialistic, more spiritual, won’t abuse alcohol or drugs or be an abusive person. Obviously, one needs to work on their character to overcome these things and not let Judaism be limited to what one’s garb is. My point was only that in the communities where people take Judaism seriously, they have a much greater shot at fulfillment, happiness, etc. Like anything, Judaism isn’t some magical potient. It’s something which requires hard work and can ultimately lead to happiness.
Then again, Rabbi Goldberg, I’d like to know: have you got mental health professionals or at least rabbis trained in determining the symptoms of depressions and conflict management on site? I know you lads mean well, but I’m not convinced that your students would open up to you just as my students would not necessarily open up to me, just that I have been trained to recognize behaviour symptomatic of depressions.
Oh, and BTW, I live in pretty capitalist Germany.
Rabbi Kelsey, maybe I should share my story re: those Monsey guys with you.
Apparently in general, the richer you are the happier you are.
http://www.gallup.com/poll/104.....sfied.aspx
Can one ‘tremble with fear’ and be happy at the same time?
Reb Leibish, that depends on what part of you’s trembling.
Actually, Germany doesn’t make the top 20 list of happiest countries either.
Meir, you seem much to concerned that others have too much gashmius.
My point was only that in the communities where people take Judaism seriously, they have a much greater shot at fulfillment, happiness, etc.
Rabbi, that could well be, but it doesn’t necessarily follow that right wing Orthodoxy - or Orthodoxy at all, for that matter - is the only form of spirituality conducive to this. There are plenty of non-Orthodox Jews who would argue that they find their forms of practice fulfilling, and who couldn’t begin to cope with the structural requirements of Orthodoxy. For that matter, there are Jews practicing non-Jewish religions who would tell you the same thing.
Now, if you want to argue that a Jew is required by God to follow a specific path, that’s another matter. I’d still disagree with you, but it would be an entirely different argument.
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