Simple to Remember: Better Out Than Ultra-Orthodox
This post will be used as a link in the future repeatedly. I am explaining and translating all Hebrew terms so that this post can be easily understood by all.
One of the issues that we in the secular and liberal Jewish world need to be more honest, open, and forthright about is our position on the false dichotomy that the ultra-Orthodox and RWMO (right-wing Modern Orthodox) “outreach professionals” hurl at us in order to justify the outreach preference for guiding young Jews into fundamentalism and corresponding socio-economic devolvement.
Forget for a moment that there are, of course, many other possibilities even within Orthodox outreach. Forget that the mere fact that this false dichotomy is offered is indicative of the horrific reality that many outreach workers simply do not value the functionalism of our youth even one iota, but rather, ONLY value their level of religiousity. Forget the profound level of utter contempt for Jews who grow up outside of Orthodoxy that this signals. Let’s just look at the inherent problem with this false dichotomy.
The game goes like this: When complaints are raised as to the methods and trajectories offered by outreach organizations to our youth, the outreach proponents respond with a question.
“Would you rather your child be ultra-Orthodox, with all it’s problems, or would you rather your child marry out, and their descendants be gentile?”
The goal of this question is to force the secular/liberal Jew to concede that ultra-Orthodoxy is better, or at least, to back off and admit uncertainty, the latter response still validating the position of the outreach recruiters.
This process can be seen in TM’s comment on The Kvetcher last December when asked this by a Bitzy P. TM responded,
“Hmmmm, intermarriage or fundamentalism? That’s a tough one. Seriously.”
This is not the accurate response for most of us in the secular and liberal Jewish world.
The more accurate response for us is clear, and should be simple to remember.
We would absolutely prefer our own children to marry out than become fundamentalists (ultra-Orthodox). It is a foreign lifestyle, and not one we would advocate to our children. Let’s be honest, the vast majority of secular and liberal Jews know the risks (Jewishly) of living their lives as they do, but they continue to do so, because they value other things more. That isn’t my issue, except to note that this proves it is all the more obvious that they don’t view ultra-Orthodoxy as an appropriate lifestyle when they won’t even bother to live a Modern Orthodox lifestyle, despite the positive effects it has on Jewish continuity and endogamy.
So when the proselytizers press us on this false dichotomy, they should be dealt with swiftly, decisively, and appropriately.
And anyone who offers the false dichotomy of intermarriage versus fundamentalism as a defense for advocating fundamentalism and downward socio-economic mobility has revealed their own preference. They should not be trusted, and should be kept far away from our youth,
Such people are not to be trusted in any capacity with our kids.
Again, to be crystal clear: Given the false choice between kids becoming ultra-Orthodox or say, Unitarian, the answer is absolutely Unitarian. If I had kids, and knew that they and their descendants would become right-wing ultra-Orthodox if they remained in the fold, I would convert them to Unitarianism myself.
Any questions?
28 comments
It’s the same angle of logic that is applied when saying that ‘assimilation’ led to the Holocaust; this claim is historically incorrect (just as incorrect as it would be to claim that being Eastern Orthodox Jewish led to the Holocaust, as Eastern Euroopean Orthodox Jewish communities suffered the biggest losses percentagewise) as well as educationally disastrous. It applies emotional violence akin to “If you don’t eat your veggies, the giant will come and eat you”.
yeah 1 question…how do u live with youself? its people like you who WANT the jewish people to die out. You would rather have someone be a non-jew then someone you disagree with within your own religion. Why dont you just do us all a favor and call yourself a self hating jew and get it over with? (i guess thats two questions). I was going to ask why you dont convert out of judiasm right now since while considering youself jewish its more likely your kids will become frum (G-d forbid), but UNLIKE YOU i dont want to see people leave G-d’s fold, unlike you i know every jewish soul is precious despite how dead wrong they may be
Sarah/froylein
I have heard the same “historical innacurate” argument about the 6 day war being a miracle (when no military institution will teach it because there is no reason israel should have won) and about the temple even being on the temple mount (according the PLO it was NEVER there). You believe whatever you want, but there is constant proof throughout history of times when jews tried to assimilate then progroms to tell them “you arent one of us” just like the holocaust
Sorry, it still remains a difficult issue. Also, I refuse to reject all Orthodox Jews or Orthodox Judaism. I’ve met Orthodox Jews whose life is impressive in many respects. They tend to be Modern Orthodox who live in Israel and usually live in settlements or support settlements, so their politics are out of line with mine, but I think for many the way they live as Jews is quite beautiful. And yes, at least one of them ate in my home and didn’t say a word about whether we were kosher enough for him.
“Also, I refuse to reject all Orthodox Jews or Orthodox Judaism.”
So we agree. This is only towards the ultra-Orthodox kiruvniks. Not the Modern Orthodox. My only issue with the MO in this regards it that the RWMO are often all too willing to feed secular and liberal Jewry to the ultra-Orthodox furnace of socio-economic destruction.
one of the ortho right’s biggest turn offs in my opinion are the theodicy scare tactics.
another other of course is that they are too damn strict.
Well, I actually agree strongly regarding the kiruvniks or kiruv tactics. I believe I may have posted once or twice about the issue.
Hey wait a minute. You’ve just changed your post and added a part about making your kids change to Unitarianism instead of Ultra-Orthodoxy. That’s a pretty strong statement about all of Ultra-Orthodoxy and I disagree with it.
Fran wrote,
“You would rather have someone be a non-jew then someone you disagree with within your own religion.”
Wrong, Fran. Right-wing ultra-Orthodoxy has precious little to do with the Judaism of my ancestors. It IS a different religion. That is how I see it. Therefore, I perceive the choice as picking between two DIFFERENT religions than my own anyway.
“That’s a pretty strong statement about all of ultra-Orthodoxy and I disagree with it.”
I understand that. I would argue that most American Jews, liberal or secular, would prefer Unitarian, or they would live differently. Some wouldn’t agree. But what is happening is happening because haredim and many RWMO Jews absolutely prefer that secular and liberal Jews be confined to ultra-Orthodox environments because they don’t trust them to “stay frum” outside of those enclaves, no matter how miserable and poor they become.
If this is going to continue, then this must 1) be exposed, and 2) be resisted.
The frummies are not changing their tune. They are getting more radical every day, and demanding more nonsense every day. In the Diaspora, we may have to accept that ultimately, the choice for liberal and secular Jews is ultra-Orthodoxy or complete assimilation. If this is to be the choice, or when it is going to be the choice, I would say the better choice is out.
Keep in mind, most ultra-Orthodox Jews believe that this is the choice. They don’t believe MO is a legitimate option at all. And they control most of kiruv (outreach).
And even the RWMO, who would hate their own children to become ultra-Orthodox, have little or no qualms guiding secular and liberal Jewry into ultra-Orthodoxy. After all, they aren’t “as strong” as the MO. They can’t be trusted.
Yeshiva University closed its doors to public school teens for over two decades. Where were they to go? They were to go to Aish HaTorah, Neve Yerushalayim, and Ohr Somayach.
There were precious few Modern Orthodox options AT ALL until the screams of a few ex-haredi BT bloggers began to resonate with a wider audience. They never would have bothered to add them themselves. They simply don’t give a fuck.
See ya, DK. Don’t let the doorknob hit you in the ass on the way out.
Oh, don’t you worry, mohammed. I personally intend to stick around and harass the haredi-kiruvniks for decades.
Whatever works for you. I’m a totally disinterested observer, kiruv is not my line, but an obsession like that can’t be healthy.
Fran, why don’t you read up some historical essay on Jews and assimilation (I can recommend the one by Jacob Toury) and see for yourself that what you wrote is utter nonsense? Yes, Jews have been under persecution from the times of the start of the Jewish diaspora on; inbetween phases of persecution and expulsion, there were phases of relative peace. But what people call “assimilation”, the adaption to their surroundings, has happened gradually and, in most cases, voluntarily. Those Spanish Jews that opposed their forced conversions to Christianity detested Christianity at heart enough to hand down their Jewishness to their children; many a South American Jew stems from those roots. I understand that theologically some deem it a necessity that everything bad that happens to Jews is considered a punishment for something, but odds of those punishment for ultra-observance are just as high as for emancipated or lesser observance unless you claim to know what was on God’s, assuming you believe in the monotheistic deity eventually adopted by assimilation to Christian reading / understanding of a supreme being as opposed to the monolatristic deity that introduces itself / gets introduced in the decalogue, mind in each and every case
BTW, has it ever come to our mind that the Chasidic garb and traditional Ashkenaz diet are products of voluntarily assimilation to Eastern European lifestyle? And has it ever appeared to you that the screenname you’ve chosen is derived from that of a saint (in Catholic understanding) of the Middle Ages, a name no religious Jew in medieval Europe would have chosen for himself? If you want to outrule assimilation, make Jews stop lighting candles instead of oil flasks. They picked up lighting candles from Christians, who, ironically enough, symbolize spreading the message of Jesus of Nazarth by lighting candles in liturgy.
Mohammed, did you go / are you going to the wedding?
Oh, and what you call “challah” was the Sunday bread of the pauper Christians in medieval Germany and you still find it in bakeries all over the place with a variety of regional names.
which wedding?
The rabbi’s son’s apparently; a Satmar friend of mine currently is in NY from Israel because of that wedding.
I love the way people throw around the term “self hating jew”. You can’t forcibly impose your concept of identity on someone who won’t accept it, and like it or not, many people don’t find their ethnicity central to, or even a meaningful part of, their identity. Why would you assume that means he hates himself?
no, I didn’t.
Mohammed, psychologically speaking?
psychologically speaking what?
Why someone would assume that somebody else, who chooses to be different, hated himself..
Oh. No, I was asking if there was any logical basis for the assumption. I don’t psychoanalyze other people because I don’t care about their issues.
My own are more than enough for me.
There’s no ‘logical’ basis, nothing anybody with an averagely healthy mind could fathom.
I hear this “self hating jew” shit on a regular basis, and I’m taking the opportunity to ask one of the name callers exactly what she means by it and what basis she has for that assumption.
http://7fatcow.com/2007/03/01/...../#comments
Why do people have to choose one extreme over another? First of all, a Jew is a Jew and if they are not proud of their heritage then already there is a problem. Regardless of your beliefs (or non-belief) it might be a better world all-round if people could allow others to be “different”. I am an Orthodox Jew BUT I have friends who are Modern Orthodox, Reform, Conservative, Secular, non-Jews and (Gd Forbid) Christians. They are my friends because they allow me to be what I am and I allow them to be what they are. We agree that we disagree on many things from religion to politics–but these are the people (all of them) who have stood by me and supported me in good times and bad. I do not have a massive circle of friends, but appreciate them all. In Israel there are times when it seems that the enemy doesn’t have to try to destroy us because we Jews are doing a great job amongst ourselves. I don’t have an answer, but perhaps more effort should be put into getting along internally before the “others” succeed in wiping the Jews off the earth.
What about Muslims, Ofran? Do you not include Muslims in your circle?
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