Princeton policy proves the wisdom of attending…Touro?
Rabbi Burg, the national director of NCSY, has an Op-Ed in this week’s Forward. Rabbi Burg is excited about Princeton’s decision “to enable students to work overseas before ever setting foot on the college campus.
While I understand why Rabbi Burg feels this is public validation on the merits of a year abroad (NCSY encourages its youth group membership to attend Israeli yeshivas for a year), Rabbi Burg also notes,
“Among yeshivas, there are a wide variety of options, for teens of all backgrounds and previous levels of education. Many yeshivas also offer joint year-abroad options with schools such as Yeshiva University and Touro College, which assists those concerned with college credits and the possibility of financial assistance.?
First of all, I think Rabbi Burg should be commended for his honesty about where these yeshiva students are being guided. In fact, NCSY itself heavily promotes and recruits for these dual curriculum schools, and has done so for decades. However, I would appeal to secular and liberal Jews–-and these are the Jews who comprise the Forward’s targeted readership—that Touro College is absolutely not academically acceptable for our youth.
I think Rabbi Burg should accept this already. Touro needs to be taken off the table of preferred choices for secular and liberal Jews by the yeshivas and seminaries that NCSY sends them to. Perhaps instead, as a compromise, Rabbi Burg could make a deal with Princeton and other Ivy League schools, as well as schools not in the Ivy League, but far, far superior to the likes of third tier Touro.
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Touro’s law school just opened up a brand spanking new kosher cafeteria. They seem desperate to maintain the facade that they are still a Jewish school. I was in the place when it first opened. They really could have saved themselves the trouble. It’s like a 400 pound woman ordering a girdle by catalogue.
Of course I got half of my degree from a school that, up until my freshman year, was officially “clothing optional”. This was LITERALLY one of their best recruiting trump cards
I can hardly imagine a parent of an NCSY parent considering Touro under almost any circumstances, so I wouldn’t lose any sleep over this, DK.
I remember speaking at a fundraising breakfast for Chaim Berlin way back when, in a modern orthodox community. The yeshiva believed I could “speak” to them about the need to support, and perhaps consider for their own boys to, that sort of institution, and at the time I was considered a useful spokesman for that kind of argument given my background.
I may not have given my best presentation before or since, but frankly when I sat down to finish my own bagel, all the fathers attending just wanted to know how hard it was to get into Princeton these days, and what did I think their kids’ chances were.
I can hardly imagine this has changed that much in 18 years.
Ron, NCSY sends people to Touro. 28% of public school students according to the Lily Foundation study went to dual curriculum schools, i.e., YU or Touro.
http://kvetcher.jewschool.com/.....-eduation/
“I think Rabbi Burg should accept this already. Touro needs to be taken off the table of preferred choices for secular and liberal Jews by the yeshivas and seminaries that NCSY sends them to. ”
never gonna happen. Keep dreaming.
Well, besides the fact that there’s no breakdown, DK, we also don’t know what their other options were. Is Touro worse than SUNY Binghamton? Queens College? Rutgers Camden? Not so clear.
My only brush with Touro was its ads I’ve seen on the subway; it appeared like a community college for lower income or socially / educationally challenged people to me.
[I'm not against public education, mind you, most schools and universities over here are public per definition and those that per definition are private (corporation-, religion-run schools) are free of charge. Universities are 500€ per semester, which isn't exactly much. But if education is public it needs to be quality, too.]
Sarah, the ads you see on the subway do indeed target that market, but not for the “divisions” of Touro that are supposed to be its main purpose. Rather they’re for the associate degree and “certificate” programs for things like music studio mixing, graphic design, etc. — the sort of thing that people used to learn on the job but which are today staples and cash cows for all sub-elite urban campuses.
It certainly does confuse the message, and doesn’t make Touro any more desirable, does it?
“Is Touro worse than SUNY Binghamton? Queens College?”
YES!
What are your metrics, DK?
Hey, Ron, I had yeshiva friends in the 90s who complained about the class control issue at Touro. One switched to Queens because of that issue. Touro is a shithole. It is third tier. The SUNY and CUNY schools have strengths that Touro will never have, including massive funding and spectacular professors.
And are you seriously not aware of the deep pockets of these CUNY and SUNY schools? Or how well they rank in various departments?
http://colleges.usnews.ranking....._brief.php
Stop your lawyer Jew-jive talk and face facts, Ron. You want to be an accoutant or physical therapist, Touro is just fine. But most pre-war American Jews get a liberal arts degree, and Touro doesn’t even make much pretense of offering such a treife thing.
Our kids need a solid, round education, not dual curriculum drek, which is what Touro specializes in. There motto is not Torah u’ Mada, but how to get a degree without risking spiriutal “danger.”
Keep that shit for the FFB heimeishes. Not our youth. And if NCSY continues to send our kids there via yeshiva and seminary, we must continue to wage war, and seek to drive them OUT of our public schools at all costs.
And I am well aware that my stance on this is a big joke to the Beyond BT crowd and all of Big Kiruv, but I would note to my readers that a quality secular education ITSELF is a big joke to the frummies. Look at their “history” books on their “Gedoylim.” Of course they think this stuff is unimportant.
Do not trust these people with the education of our youth. This is extreme dumbing down.
I iz talk and rite liek this cauz I went to yeshiva. I no a few meshchtas of the gamara butt i cant anser y the ski iz bleu.
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lol, joke from SJ XD
SJ, I almost believed you for a second. the spelling’s pretty authentic. Vat a plasher!
But to illustrate, a yeshiva-educated Satmar friend of mine was quite astonished a) that my dog (female) and my then cat (male) did not engage in sexual intercourse, b) that dogs can be female as their grammatical gender in Yiddish is male, and c) vice versa for cats as their grammatical gender in Yiddish is female. He firmly believed that dogs shag up cats and the male offspring turns to be dogs and the female offspring turns to be cats.
Ron, the educational system over here is quite different, so I was wondering. Non-academic professions require a three-year apprenticeship on the job alongside college classes (either one or tow days of college per week or block-style classes for a few weeks every few months), depending on the track (e.g. socialwork) internships of a year prior to and after college might be mandatory to earn the degree. Chambers of commerce (public) offer extra training sessions on skills that might come in handy but do not necessarily get taught on the job anymore.
I actually was just asking whether you knew more than what U.S. News says, which is not all that valuable after #1. I hold no brief for Touro’s academic standards.
Ron,
SUNY Binghamton is a top tier public school. The Princeton Review consistently has it ranked as a “Best Value School”, with the average student cume of 3.7. I don’t know anybody who got in of any caliber lower than that. Queens College can be a mixed bag, but it is, from what I understand, as rigorous as any mid-tier private school. The majority of people who go there are immigrants or children of immigrants who want to stay local to save their parents some money. Two years ago, when I was sick of going to a private school that was so pretentious it was almost vulgar, I nearly transfered to Queens myself. I would NEVER in a million years have thought to transfer to Touro. Maybe it is a generational thing, but Touro is certainly not considered a viable choice for anybody who wants an education while they’re getting their degree.
Halfsours, it is not a “generational” thing. It is an English as a primary or second language thing.
I knew people from my hometown who were guided to Touro thanks to the frummies. These are bright women who could have done much, much better.
People should understand that Biug Kiruv ONLY cares about increasing the odds of “keeping them frum.” They will absolutely sacrifice everything else for YOUR children if they think that will increase the odds even a tiny bit.
In the end, they are quite heartless.
Froylein,
My father spent his entire education until the age of 18 in the black hat yeshiva setting. The community he grew up in was Hungarian, and to this day his accent in Hebrew is as nails on a chalkboard to me or any Zionist. When he was 18 he received a full merit scholarship to Columbia University. Having been exposed to snobbery like SJ’s, he was afraid that he would never be able to make it in such an academically rigorous environment. He was eventually elected (a kid with a yarmulka!) to the position of class president, and went onto law school with nearly all A’s. The moral of my story (aside from my dad is awesome) is that anecdotal evidence seems to mean very little. You know someone from the Hungarian yeshiva system who is lacking educationally, and I know someone who managed to excel from it, and attributes much of his success to it. I am not accusing you of, but merely advising against making sweeping conclusions based on such knowledge.
DK u freaking apikoras! Ve hav hashem!!!! ve dont nead money and we dont need goy edumications!!!!
Ok so maibeee we nead da money butt edumications ar for de heritic reform and conserveteve jews and the goyem.
HalfSours, your story is just as anecdotal as mine and going by my experience even more exceptional. Your father apparently qualified for his studies and did well, but many tracks of studies probably would have posed huge problems for him as the groundwork for pursuing those is not laid at yeshiva. As I mentioned in another post’s thread, two lessons of secular studies per week are enough to fulfil the minimum requirements for public funding as a friend of mine, a Satmar rosh yeshive, told me. Those two lessons include English, maths, science and social studies. Would your father not have had an easier time at university had he been able to be confident of his language skills? I’ve got quite a few Chasidic friends that suffer from what could be called an educational social anxiety disorder - not because they fear mockery, but because they are well-aware that their education has been lacking. Their environment’s discouragement adds to that. A good learner at yeshiva will make a good learner at university, but not all yeshiva education is good, and their purpose is not to prepare youths for adult work life but to keep them out of trouble till they get married.
confident about*
“HalfSours, your story is just as anecdotal as mine and going by my experience even more exceptional.”
I’m glad then that you fully understood my point at the bottom of my comment, and decided to include some actual data before making any conclusions:
“As I mentioned in another post’s thread, two lessons of secular studies per week are enough to fulfil the minimum requirements for public funding as a friend of mine, a Satmar rosh yeshive, told me. Those two lessons include English, maths, science and social studies.”
In fact, the dirty little secret is that the most popular majors in college are drinking and sex, and most people have a double major. We are, yes, talking about a college’s prestige, and that has value in and of itself; I absolutely acknowledge that. But very, very few undergraduates ever scratch the surface of what their professors can teach them at virtually any college.
Also anecdotally, I can say that every person I have ever met with a black-hat yeshiva background who attended law school, with the exception of a Lubavitcher (because Lubavs don’t really learn gemara), ran the table in law school, despite their frequently mediocre writing skills.
Even if this anecdote were representative, however, it would not be meaningful. We may be looking at the best of the worst; or the most motivated; or who knows.
Motivation and household culture, however, are at least as important as primary, secondary or undergraduate school quality, IMHO.
Ve hav secrete to. Do u tink ve ate englesh sdudies cauze ve lov to lern gamara? we ate englesh sdudies cauz ve ait to lern peariod!!! XD
Also anecdotally, I can say that every person I have ever met with a black-hat yeshiva background who attended law school, with the exception of a Lubavitcher (because Lubavs don’t really learn gemara), ran the table in law school, despite their frequently mediocre writing skills.
Even if this anecdote were representative, however, it would not be meaningful. We may be looking at the best of the worst; or the most motivated; or who knows.
At my law school (a pretty darn good one) there was a handful of yeshiva bochers who were wicked smart. There were a couple of them who went to black hat yeshivas like Lakewood and had never really done any secular learning before. At least one of them had never learned to take notes and had never written a paper before law school. But these guys still kicked butt in class and did very well academically. And there was another one who I think may have been a BT. He went to Touro undergrad, kicked butt in law school and now works for one of the top law firms in NYC.
That said, I agree with Ron that it’s not a meaningful anecdote. My understanding was that the law school had an arrangement with a couple of the top yeshivas (like Lakewood) to allow one or two of their top graduates to come to the law school each year despite their near-complete lack of a secular education. And I think the yeshivas chose very carefully who they sent so they could keep that right. As for the Touro guy, he was more velvet kippah MO than black hat, and he was really, really ambitious (in addition to being very smart).
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