Priorities in the ultra-Orthodox world
This is an extension of the famous question, “Which is more important? The mishputim (rational laws) or the chukim (irrational laws)?
Maya writes on Beyond BT,
After we got home from Kol Nidre last Yom Kippur, my dad asked me if G-d prefers someone who observes all the laws of Shabbas and kashrus yet acts immorally in dealings with people, ie in the workplace, or someone who is a good person, acts ethically in business, yet does not observe Shabbas or kashrus.
Let me clarify things for Maya’s Dad from a heimshe perpsective.
If someone prioritizes that other ultra-Orthodox Jews act ethically in business over acting sufficiently haredi, they are probably either baal teshuvahs or aren’t really frum, or both.
If someone wears a black hat and is careful about kashrut (that is to say, shuns the non-haredi rabbinical hechshers as insufficient whenever possible), it doesn’t matter if he steals people blind or touches little boys (provided there is no penetration!). He is still better than those people who eat like animals and know not the laws of the rabbis.
And now seems like a good time for a little reminder to my Manhattan friends: It is getting warmer, and some of you are being lax. Remember! It is forbidden to walk between two dogs, two pigs, or two women. Please be advised. Don’t be a sheigetz who walks down the street without protecting his path from darkness and spiritual danger.
13 comments
I agree that it’s awful when frum people don’t observe the laws bein adam l’chavero, but I don’t think that you can say that most frum people will behave dishonestly.
Or, you can say it, but I believe it to be a gross oversimplification.
Annie,
Fair point - I reworded it slightly.
Thanks.
My experiences with FFB folks have been mixed (note, frum in my book requires beard + peyos on males; the Middle High German word actually means thoughtless uncritical observance of religious practice void of deeper meaning), but I’ve seen a great tendency among many to not care at all about others outside the community, which in large parts reflects in their ideologies re: environmentalism. Après nous le déluge.
Wait, is it ideology or not caring?
Ron, those I’ve referred to have made it an ideology.
I assume the word frum is related to the English word prim, which seems to fit the definition you’ve given, Sarah.
I would say that a lot of frum people don’t care about “big picture” issues, and a lot of non-frum people don’t care about “big picture” issues.
There’s a huge gap between indifference and an ideology though as to maintain they ideology, they need to verify it - either through leaders’ sentiments or weird twists on the interpretation of religious texts.
Good to see you on the ball again, DK. Why the three day hafsaka?
I recently left a Rabbi I know flabbergasted when I told him that without the torah prohibitions I see no reason not to murder, rape or steal and as far as I’m concerned they’re all basically chukim. Then again, my personal perspective is either nihilistic existentialism or existential nihilism.
Now let me clarify some things for you from a heimishe perspective.
Your standards for ethical morality are 20th century western culture. Why you think that it’s any more valid than muslim, australian aborigines, or for that matter, haredi orthodox culture is another question.
But someone who acts in a certain manner because of his personal ethical illusions as opposed to religious beliefs is not fulfilling a religious obligation, neither are those actions any signifier of his level of religiousity.
Whereas someone who is basically religious, with whatever lapses in ethics, morality or purely religious matters, is considered religious as long as he doesn’t cross certain red lines.
Of course, you can compare a religious dishonest person with an irreligious honest one, it’s as valid as comparing a black genius with a white retard, or vice versa.
But that’s not the equation most people make.
People choose to associate with, and identify as part of a community based on ethnicity, language, religion, socioeconomic status or some other common denominator.
If someone doesn’t fit, he doesn’t, period. Yeah, God may like him better, he may be a “better” person, depending on your standards and criteria, but that’s totally irrelevant.
The dregs of our community are still “us” and the best of someone elses community are still “them”. That’s basic social psychology.
That’s from a human perspective. Now, from a purely religious perspective, as it were, from Gods perspective.
כל הנקרא בשמי ולכבודי, בראתיו יצרתיו אף עשיתיו
Isaiah 43:7 Even every one that is called by my name: for I have created him for my glory, I have formed him; yea, I have made him.
http://www.biblicalproportions.....saiah/43/7
Humans were created for the greater glory of God. Someone who is not serving that purpose, like f’rinstance an athiest, has forfeited his basic right to existense. Period. The fact that he gets along with other humanoid mammals notwithstanding.
Or, if you want to go by the justice system.
The punishment for stealing is to return what you stole, or, by גזל הגר a sacrifice and 1 and 1/5th of what you stole.
The punishment for not keeping kosher is 39 lashes for milk and meat, כרת, a spiritual death sentence, for tevel, chometz on pesach or eating on yom kipur. Stoning for smoking a cigarette on shabbes. Death for adultery, or consenting homosexual sex. (Sorry, I don’t remember which deaths for which)
All mixing up elementary questions like these with philosophical questions about chukim and mishpotim means is that you weren’t paying attention in hebrew school.
“The dregs of our community are still “us” and the best of someone elses community are still “them”. That’s basic social psychology.”
That’s a good way to get your ass kicked. And that’s tribal, not moral. Again, a good way to get your ass kicked.
“All mixing up elementary questions like these with philosophical questions about chukim and mishpotim means is that you weren’t paying attention in hebrew school.”
There are the basic 10 Commandments. Kosher and circumcision and kill your twelve year old if he eats too much meat and wine at one sitting is not in there.
The Christians kind of have a point on this.
that’s a good way to get your ass kicked. irrelevant.
it’s tribal, not moral. if religion is morality, and you choose to self identify as part of a group based on religious identity, it follows that the consequent tribal whatever also has a religious/moral aspect.
So you got as far as the ten commandments?
the reason kosher and circumcision and the rest aren’t in there is because then it wouldn’t be ten anymore. duh.
A pedophile is an individual who has committed an act that is far worse than eating any treif in existence. How dare you trivialize child molestation!!! I am a Conservative Jew who is climbing higher on the ladder of observance each day. However, don’t you dare put women in the same category as pigs and dogs. We are a price above rubies. Or have you forgotten that?
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