Comments on: It turns out there are problems with Hitler as Grand Posek

By: Reb Leibish

Reb Leibish — Tue, 06 May 2008 15:35:58 +0000

Sarah/Froylein, Mischlinge were not considered Aryan but neither were they considered Jews. They were sui generis as shown by the heading in the chart you linked to. I do not deny for a moment that they were terribly persecuted, but that fact of persecution does not make them any less German or more Jewish.

Roi Ben Yehuda asks “from the perspective of the Law of Return, shouldn’t the ubiquitous gaze of the antisemite be the deciding factor of whether or not someone is Jewish?”.

I would say no. Insofar as the Law of Return is a guide to who is Jewish as opposed to whom should be allowed to live in Israel, the decision need not follow either Hitler or halacha. There are some people who consider themselves Jews and whom an antisemite might consider Jewish whom the State of Israel is perfectly entitled to refuse to allow to live in Israel. From the perspective of the Law of Return, Jewish identity should be the a decisive factor and that identity can be cast off by choice just as the American patriots cast off their Britishness.

By: Sarah/froylein

Sarah/froylein — Fri, 02 May 2008 16:52:14 +0000

Reb Leibish, I was addressing your claim that the Nazis did not consider Mischlinge Jews and persecute them accordingly. You backed away from your initial claim in your response. The issue raised was who the Nazis considered to be Jewish, not what the “Orthodox” world thinks, particularly not what assimilated-to-18th century-Poland-but-trying-to-pass-it-off-as-authentic-Judaism Orthodox think.

By: Reb Leibish

Reb Leibish — Fri, 02 May 2008 15:23:27 +0000

Sarah/froylein. The basis of classification of Aryan, Mischling, Jew arouse from the Berufsbeamtengesetze of April 1933 which predate the Nuremburg laws.
A typical second degree mischling would be someone whose grandparent (whom may well have died before the Mischling was born) converted to Roman Catholicism in the 19th century prior to marriage. The Mischling’s parent would have been raised as German Roman Catholics maybe having fought for the Fatherland in the First World War and would have married a ‘pure’ German who raised as a German with no Jewish influences whatsoever. This Mischling would not consider himself as anything other then German, in fact he might feel disgust as seeing a OstJude in traditional garb . Such a person’s world would have been shattered on being declared a second degree Mischling and persecuted on that account(although not to the extent of being declared a Jew). The proper response to the persecution of such a second degree Mischling is to not to declare that persecution as entitling that person to be regarded as being Jewish. That proper response is to declare that this second degree Mischling’s complete assimilation and lack of identity with Judaism makes him a non-Jewish German whatever Hitler said and that the persecution of non-Jews by Hitler was also evil. Likewise even the first degree Mischling parent should be regarded as a German Non Jew if raised as such and assimilated. Furthermore the Jewish grandparent in becoming a Roman Catholic in order to marry a German shows that by choice he wishes to be regarded as no longer Jewish and that children born of that marriage be assimilated into German society. Although parentage is a one factor in deciding if someone is a Jew, not being fully assimilated into non Jewish society must also be a necessary factor (as the Israeli definition allows but which the Nazi definition refutes). Identity does not necessarily follow parentage. If some Roman Catholic tells me that he is Jewish through his maternal grandmother and that it pains him as a Jew that his ‘brothers and sisters’ do not realize that their suffering comes from their rejection of Jesus, he is seeking to use his meaningless Jewish ancestry to hide lack of meaningful Jewish identity. There is a powerful stand of left thinking that has been unable to address forms of oppression not directly linked to class and for who Jews are a problem whose ‘final solution’ adopts the assimilationist position in which there is no room within emancipated humanity for Jews as a separate ethnic or cultural identity, and which advocates a society where both cultural as well as economic difference is eliminated. People with Jewish ancestry can hold such views just as those without such ancestry. A group of such leftist assimilationists wrote to the London Guardian declaring their regret at the foundation of the State of Israel. However instead of honestly stating their beliefs that humanity would benefit if Jewish identity would fade away and that accordingly the foundation of a Jewish state is a retrograde step for humankind, they dishonestly pretended to be caring Jews concerned for the plight of the Mufti’s dispossessed followers.

By: Sarah/froylein

Sarah/froylein — Fri, 02 May 2008 08:39:05 +0000

Don’t know; a Google search brought no results. The best I could get was, “I hate you like a brother” (Shaq vs Kobe).
But it equals to my, “Don’t get me wrong, I like my sis. I’ve always had a particular interest in fossils.”

By: mohammed

mohammed — Fri, 02 May 2008 06:48:48 +0000

Sarah
I knew there had to be some reason.
Who was it that said “I love you like a brother (and I hate my brother)?

By: Sarah/froylein

Sarah/froylein — Fri, 02 May 2008 03:11:56 +0000

Mohammed, cause RWO make a more decorative, ‘authentic’ set of guests at weddings than guys in orange T-shirts.
Are BPers already fleeing upstate?

By: Sarah/froylein

Sarah/froylein — Fri, 02 May 2008 03:07:01 +0000

Reb Leibish, Mischlinge were also killed, partly in the Euthanasia. One was considered a Jew with one Jewish ancestor six generations back. German home economics school books of that time had blank family trees and a chapters dedicated to finding out if your future spouse had any Jews in his family tree up to six generations back. Basis were the ‘Nürnberger Rassengesetze’ of 1935; the Wannsee-Conference decided on the ‘Final Solution’ when expulsion, expropriation, torturing, imprisonment, executions based on allegations of non-patriotic behaviour etc. had already been in full swing for years.
Cf. http://www.hdg.de/lemo/objekte.....index.html

By: mohammed

mohammed — Fri, 02 May 2008 01:17:05 +0000

“And when a Jew says, “It’s all right with me if all the other members of my family go to hell for all of eternity, as long as I can have the security blanket of this belief system for a few brief decades while I’m alive” – as I say, it crosses the line. It’s unconscionable. At that moment, he creates an unbridgeable gap between himself and the other members of the family. Actually, I’d have to say that he ceases to be a member.”
Why JFJ and not RWO?

By: Reb Leibish

Reb Leibish — Thu, 01 May 2008 23:01:11 +0000

The Nazi definition of Jew is one who has 3 or 4 Jewish grandparents. A person with 1 or 2 Jewish grandparents is a Mischling (second or first degree respectively) , a status in its own right. The Wansee conference protocols provided that a first degree Mischling who married a German and produced children would as a rule be exempted from ‘evacuation’. A second degree Mischling would generally escape ‘evacuation’ even if childless unless they had a racially unfavorable appearance.
The Nazi position being based on race does not allow a Jew to escape being a Jew whatever action he takes even by marrying a non Jew thereby showing an intent to end his Jewish lineage by creating Mischling. The main problem with Jews for Jesus is that they are assimilationist and do not see any need to maintain a separate Jewish identity through their children. Their Jewish birth is as relevant to their being considered Jews as is Jefferson’s early life as a subject of the British king is relevant to what he wanted his children to be. I will always say to an assimilationist that I do not consider him to be a Jew. If the assimilationist says to me that Hitler would disagree with me, then I would tell the assimilationist that I am not too bothered by that. Someone whose Jewish parentage may be somewhat suspect who shows anti assimilationist tendencies (be it Neturei Karta in NYC or Meretz in Tel Aviv) should be considered and given the rights and privileges of a Jew even if Hitler would considers him a Mischling. Assimilationists who trumpets their impeccable Jewish Lineage be they Jews for Jesus or certain extreme left wing groups should have their claims of being Jewish thrown back in their face by reminding them they define themselves in the manner that Hitler would. It really annoys them.

By: Sarah/froylein

Sarah/froylein — Thu, 01 May 2008 19:10:00 +0000

Whatever Rabbi Kelsey does, it’ll lead all of his followers the way to a better life. Even if it’s an extreme makeover.