Better Out Than “Active”?
One Frum Skeptic writes,
I was in a kiruv program at HS (I believe I mentioned this before) that was part of a “regular” all girls school[…]
Anyway, because we were so close, we used to go into long conversations about our families, and how they reacted when we decided to become frum and so on. So one day, I mentioned my uncle, who at the time was about 25. He had just broken an engagement with a shiksa the year before, and so at the time -after he went on birthright, and had decided he only wanted to marry a Jewish girl, I took it as a ‘project’ to find him someone (I was like 14, and 25 seemed old to me!). So when I mentioned this, I was like “OMG, Mrs., you’re very into kiruv, your husband works with a lot of BT guys, which means he meets their families. So he probably knows their sisters, cousins and relatives that may not be frum, but want a Jewish guy.”
So she was like “yes, we know a few girls, plus we know of many girls generally.”
So I was like “OMG!!! You should totally look for someone for my uncle! […]
And so, I expected her to say something like “well, I’ll keep him in mind” but what I got was totally unexpected …
“Well, I would keep him in mind, but since he is not religious, then he is not shomer, and our policy is not to set up people who aren’t religious because they may break the laws of shomer negiah.”
I was like “Wouldn’t you rather the guy be guaranteed a Jewish wife, and Jewish children, as well as a continuation of his lineage? Isn’t that more important than keeping shomer? I mean his kids may not end up Jewish at all.”
She was like “No, we don’t set people like that up”
[…]
And she was pretty adamant about it, because she never asked about my uncle!
The logic my teacher used just makes no sense to me. She does kiruv. As long as a Jew is single, they can continue on doing kiruv. If they marry a Jew, they can continue doing kiruv on them (I know a few families where only one person became frum, and they remained married, because the other side “compromised.”
Secular and liberal Jews who think that kiruv is going to help with demographics should be wary that some haredi “kiruv professionals” are hardline and quite callous to helping those who don’t fit their criteria. Not only do I see nothing wrong with setting up people who aren’t “shomer,” I have difficulty seeing anything wrong with setting people up with someone of a different religion, provided both partners are truly open to it, or, I guess, if neither is looking for anything serious…though the latter situation has its risks, and the former situation has its sticking points. But then, so does any relationship. But to be honest, if I thought that the Christian partner would want the Jewish partner to convert, then I would have issues with it. Of course, I would prefer knowing that the Jewish male partner would remain strong. You know, raise his kids Unitarian or Reform, but whatever. It wouldn’t really be my business.
Anyway, this story ends happily for the uncle, or at least, not lonely.
“And now he is 31, dating a shiksa, and we suspect he wants to marry her.”
No big deal. At least the kiruv professional avoided a non-shomer negiah relationship.
11 comments
B”H
Many Kiruv workers simply have no brain. They are Baalei Teshuva and suddenly think that they are better than anyone else. “Now I keep Mitzwot and you don’t”.
A few times I had the experience that it was ME taking some secular guys to a Yeshiva and a few months later they were really into Judaism. The only problem was that they refused to be seen with me anymore because I wear pants.
It was me bringing them into the program and afterwards I didn’t exist anymore.
May this helps you to understand how such people think.
People (Kiruvniks) reacting in the way you described are causing a “Chilul HaShem”. It is their fault that many people turn away from religion and, therefore, all the Kiruvnik Mitzwot go down the drain.
Anyway, I wish you a Shabbat Shalom.
Miriam
This type of thing makes me crazy. Although, for the record, I don’t think that it necessarily is a good thing to marry a Jew ‘just because.’
Unless you personally feel responsible for the continued existence of the Jewish people, OR have some cultural/religious beliefs that you want to share with someone/pass on, then marry whomever the hell you want.
“You know, raise his kids Unitarian or Reform, but whatever. It wouldn’t really be my business.”
Cheap shot.
There is a background to that attitude and a halakhic basis to it. The Netziv wrote a responsum on whether one may “set up” people who are not religious, because they will not observe the laws of family purity. In other words, you are leading them to sin. If I recall correctly, he said that you may not.
However, most poskim today permit doing it because times have changed and people are much morally looser, so you aren’t directly causing anything. Although about 10-20 years ago someone in Israel published a book in which he argued that it is prohibited for Rabbanut rabbis to perform weddings for non-religious Jews because the women will not go to the mikvah regularly. That is a minority view. I think the vast majority of rabbis permit performing such marriages and setting people up in general. It’s not like they can’t “fool around” without your setting them up.
Miriam Woelke: “Many Kiruv workers simply have no brain. They are Baalei Teshuva and suddenly think that they are better than anyone else. “Now I keep Mitzwot and you don’t”.”
I would be willing to place money that the most egregious examples of BT zealotry are with individuals of the same sort who become extremist anything. Skinheads, bowling tour groupies, you name it, there’s people who find deep unthinking embrace of something to be way better and make them way better than some other alternative, like not being extremist whatever.
The BACs(Born Again Christians) see this all the time. Know that church that protests at funerals and jeers the bereaved all over homosexuality (ostensibly)? There you go. We’re not talking multi-generational people with the calmness that goes with it and we’re not talking level-headed slow and steady adopters, we’re talking, “you’re going to HELLLLLLLL!!!” types who make their own churches as they go along.
Everyone in any given grouping with these types cringes except those who regard them as useful idiots much as Hitler once regarded his brown shirts until the night of the long knives. While that was one big quick example of paring away of the zealot type, in other organizations the same thing happens over time little by little. In Christianity there’s the phenomenon not seen in Judaism where the zealots can splinter to form their own churches. In the absence of halacha and anything passing for daas torah (papal infallibility notwithstanding because that was staked through the heart by Henry VIII, as conveniently dramatized on Showtime, if not Martin Luther, another nutcase), that was bound to happen. All bets are off, just call yourself XYZ and do your thing.
Shudder then to consider that as a Jewish future. TEN DOZEN movements with TEN THOUSAND sects. The picture of the Torah would be as clear as WWOR is in Hartford, CT with tinfoil and bent rabbit ears. Now you see why the entire Christian bible seems to irrelevant to Christianity as practiced. It’s like Eddie Izzard’s take on the Star Spangled Banner. Mostly how you sound and look doing it, almost not at all about what you’re saying it.
That’s where bad kiruv can head and why corruption of kiruv is important, in my humble opinion.
B”H
@Suitepotato
As far as my experience goes there are differences between American and Israeli Baalei Teshuva and Kiruvniks.
In most cases, Israelis are a little more open minded and not sooo anxious putting on religion to everyone else. Not so pushy.
But many American BT I have met fo far, can be very extreme and a real pain. They think that they are so holy now and want everyone to “see the same light”. In their eyes, they do something good in the name of HaShem. Unfortunately, many times they don’t see their limits or that they simply go on other people’s nerves. And with this kind of behaviour they destroy any desire in other Jews to become religious. Nothing works by force and when you become religious due to a certain reason it doesn’t mean that the same works with others.
Personally I like to deal with religious Jews who were born into religious families. Most times they are much more patient then BTs.
Shavua Tov - Have a good week !
Miriam
“I would be willing to place money that the most egregious examples of BT zealotry are with individuals of the same sort who become extremist anything.”
Not really, as much of it is a quiescent, not activist, movement. Now, in terms of the Kahanists,well there you may have a point. They adopted many aspects of white supremacist characteristics…but that isn’t who we we generally think of as “baal teshuvahs.”
The way I feel about kiruvniks is the same way I feel about professional animal-catchers that’ll catch somebody’s pet cats to sell them off a) to labs, b) to fashion producers (real fur trimmings of no further declaration often are cat fur), c) to producers of anti-rheumatism blankets, d) Chinese gourmet temples.
As far as I’m concerned, I’m all for genetic variety for good reason:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=B9zcJ0m8lek
Wow, Sarah. You really don’t like kiruvniks
This reminds me of a Shabbat lunch I’d been to a few years ago. It was a lunch to introduce a BT chick and a regular MO-out-in-the-world guy (didn’t find out ’til afterward- smirk…). Seems Ms. BT needed to be right about everything, no compromising allowed. Somewhere between challah and gefilte fish, the tension was thicker than the potato kugel. Screeching was full-force by the time the plates were cleared. The only thing keeping people from lunging at each other was the large candelabra in the middle of the table. The poor guy! He had no idea.
Heh, Judi, I’m aware they generally mean well, but the overall outcome could compare to
“England bound in with the triumphant sea,
Whose rocky shore beats back the envious surge
Of wat’ry Neptune, is bound in with shame,
With inky-blots and rotten parchment bonds.
That England, that was wont to conquer others,
Hath made a shameful conquest of itself.”
(Shakespeare, Richard II)
It describes how Britain’s splendid isolation made for domestic dynamics that provided for its downfall.
In addition, I’ve got a personal axe to grind with some kiruv folks.
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