“Break His Legs!”
Rabbi Black, of Ohr Somayach in Zichron Yaakov, approvingly quoted a rabbi (I forgot his name) who argued that when a Jew was intermarrying, you should “break his legs.” He explained that in previous generations, one could tell the man that such a union was “past nisht” (not fitting), and that would be enough, but today, it would not be, so just “break his legs.”
To some degree, of course, this statement is hyperbole. But it reveals the level of contempt with which non-Jewish women are viewed by the B’nai Torah.
Do we outside of the haredi community say that such contempt is a problem, do we demand that as a community we get past all the tribal xenophobic bullshit, or do we point to the story of Pinchas and say racism and even hatred towards gentile women is okay since there is a Torah source one can rely on if they interpret it as such?
As the haredim are escalating the hoops a convert must jump through to prove him or her convictions, conversion to Orthodoxy is becoming less and less of an option for the partners of many Jews who don’t marry “in.”
We can’t change haredi minds, and we can’t force Israel to stop bowing down to the Gedolim. Telling the State of Israel to stop bowing down to the Gedolim is like telling a street-whore to stop getting on her knees for her Johns. In one orifice, out the other.
We can’t change the mind of Israel or their haredim. But we can embrace liberal Jewish options, and we can change our own views on intermarriage.
It’s simple to remember.
27 comments
“But we can embrace liberal Jewish options, and we can change our own views on intermarriage.”
Are you retarded?
I believe Israel can and will throw off the control of the extremists and this debacle will definitely be one of the turning points.
For way too long a number of people have tried to out-pious the next guy and it was exactly that kind of obsessive idiocy in the name of man and not G-d, that has resulted in various turns for the good. Unfortunately, it more often results in a really painful and often bloody transition.
The Protestant and English Reformations come to mind.
Maybe they, the ones who kicked this nightmare off, might have been better off leaving it all alone. Now gloves are coming off across the Internet…
HalfSours - the term is “developmentally disabled” now.
Halfsours, I don’t want to say that you are racist, I would just say that I think you need to try to learn that not everyone who feels that gentiles are our equal are mentally deficient.
“not everyone who feels that gentiles are our equal are mentally deficient.”
Hmmmm… what about everyone who feels that black people are our equal?
Considering that all blue-eyed people, of which there are many among Ashkenazim, ultra-Orthodox ones even, have been proved to stem from a common ancestor that lived around the Black Sea area a few millenia ago and who first featurd that genetic anomality, being as little Jewish as he could be, I think DK is absolutely right about critical reflections on ethnicity. (At that, blue eyes became a recessive genetic feature, which means they can only get passed on through both parents’ genetic make-up. Most Westerners sport that “defect” as they get usually born with blue eyes; I was born with black eyes and am far from claiming ethnic purity.)
Jeff, it’s “developmentally challenged”.
I know, DK, that your favorite movie is “Guess Who’s Coming for Dinner”, so I can guess your answer to this one. You know as well as I do that it isn’t an issue of equal or unequal. How do you rate people in quantifiable measures? It’s a matter pushing principles that you know very well are not meant for the establishments you are try to push them on. If you don’t like that, you’re free to disassociate.
“I think DK is absolutely right about critical reflections on ethnicity”
Which critical reflections on ethnicity? He has discussed ethnicity in many different contexts. In this particular one, I think he is mostly being tongue-in-cheek. I know that inter-marriage is a non-issue for him, but even so that isn’t really an issue of ethnicity.
Intermarriage is almost any Ashkenazi Jew’s heritage.
The pasty complexion does have its origin afterall.
The strongest advocates for a ban on intermarriage (which apparently wasn’t in existence back in the day when Jewish royalties picked their mates) base their claims on a train of thought that is solely about ethnicity, not morale or spirituality.
Jewish tradition has all the elements of Middle Eastern xenophobia towards other peoples. This is not unusual, but we need to move past it.
Ultra-Orthodox Jews don’t even recognize that a Jewish and non-Jewish marriage is actually a marriage, or that the non-Jewish father of a Jewish kid is actually his father.
This is insane. Orthodox Jews can discourage intermarriage without denying basic genetic law.
Halfsours, do you recognize an intermarriage as a marriage?
“Intermarriage is almost any Ashkenazi Jew’s heritage. The pasty complexion does have its origin afterall.”
I don’t doubt that you’re right that some Ashkenazi Jews are the products of intermarriage. Though the number is probably much lower than is represented by those with pasty skin. My great uncle’s book on the genetic heritage of the Askenazim is currently being translated from Farsi to English. When it is completed, I’ll try to send you a copy (or at least let you know where you can find it) to dispel ideas of widespread intermarriage amongst Ashkenazim pre-haskalah.
“The strongest advocates for a ban on intermarriage…base their claims on a train of thought that is solely about ethnicity, not morale or spirituality.”
If you feel that the strongest advocates for the eradication of intermarriage are Conservative, Reform, and secular traditionalist soccer moms, then sure they base their distaste for it on on ethnicity.
In the Orthodox establishment however it is quite the opposite. You can just ask Mohammad about how he feels about Judaism being tied to ethnicity. Religion and spirituality are the ikar. If it truly is ethnicity that is the issue, then how do you explain all the so-called mixed marriages between Jews of different ethnic backgrounds, or converts for that matter? I can cite countless examples of Orthodox marriages between mixed ethnic couples, including that of my own parents.
As far as intermarriage being sanctioned by G-d because Israel’s early kings married gentile wives (mostly for political purposes)- I suggest you also look over Ezra and Nehemiah in your Tanakh, for some clarity on the Biblical position on intermarriage.
“Jewish tradition has all the elements of Middle Eastern xenophobia towards other peoples. This is not unusual, but we need to move past it.”
It’s true that there are elements of xenophobia in some Jewish thought. From my perspective, if G-d took all the trouble of fostering a light unto the nations, then the nations might be worthy of illumination. That also means, at least occasionally, bringing ourselves out of our (at this point) largely self-imposed centers of isolation, and being among them. That is a very Modern Orthodox perspective however. As far as xenophobia, I acknowledge that we are different, and that means maintaining a separate way of life mostly. Is the idea to be afraid of the spiritual influence of the goyim? Not so much so that we can’t exert some spiritual influence of their own.
Do I recognize intermarriage as marriage? What kind of question is that? They’re married according to secular law, sure. What are the spiritual implications of that? Beats me.
“how do you explain all the so-called mixed marriages between Jews of different ethnic backgrounds”
Because there is no significant racial difference between Ashkenazi and Mizrahi Jews. We remain sub-categories of the same race.
Converts are treated with ambivalence by Jewish tradition.
You can just ask Mohammad about how he feels about Judaism being tied to ethnicity.
But, HalfSours, to be fair - I’m not certain that Mohammed even recognizes us as Jews. To Hareidim like him, Orthodoxy is the only legitimate form (and that’s when they’re in a generous mood; much of the time only the Hareidi is valid). If being born of a Jewish mother doesn’t count, and if you aren’t practicing some form of Shulchan Oruch-compliant Judaism - you aren’t a Jew.
Chabad appears to be the exception. As much as I disapprove of them (as David knows, my nephew ran away to join their circus), they stick with the traditional definition - a Jew is someone born of a Jewish mother, or someone having undergone formal (Orthodox) conversion. Unless they’re full of crap, but I think that most of them believe this, or at least think that they do.
Speaking of genetics - if you kids have children, will they only be 0ne-quarter sour?
“Converts are treated with ambivalence by Jewish tradition.”
Bullshit. Individual jews, sure maybe treat converts with ambivalence. This is a form of racism, and is against halakha. one isn’t supposed to treat a convert any different than one would treat a jew. the only spiritual difference between the two, according to the talmud, is that converts will never experience a high level of prophecy. other than that, for no purpose, is one allowed to discriminate. it is considered bad taste to even bring up that the person wasn’t born a Jew.
There are only three official races: Mongoloid, Caucasoid, and Negroid. Anything else can be sub-divided into ethnicity.
Damn it - I meant, “much of the time only the Hareidi variety is valid.”
Still can’t see what I’m typing, DK…
“Converts are treated with ambivalence by Jewish tradition.”
Bullshit. Individual jews, sure maybe treat converts with ambivalence. This is a form of racism, and is against halakha. one isn’t supposed to treat a convert any different than one would treat a born jew. the only spiritual difference between the two, according to the talmud, is that converts will never experience a high level of prophecy. other than that, for no purpose, is one allowed to discriminate. it is considered bad taste to even bring up that the person wasn’t born a Jew.
There are only three official races: Mongoloid, Caucasoid, and Negroid. Anything else can be sub-divided into ethnicity.
I’m not certain that Mohammed even recognizes us as Jews. To “Hareidim like him, Orthodoxy is the only legitimate form…”
I agree with you, and don’t feel that that fact undercuts my point.
Chabad are the only people out there who seem to give a crap about out mission to be an Or-lgoyim. Look into their b’nei Noah centers. They’re very cool.
“Speaking of genetics - if you kids have children, will they only be 0ne-quarter sour?”
If I marry DK, then it looks like it.
I think my point was that Hareidim not relying upon ethnicity isn’t a virtue, as they have their own arbitrary standards for determining who is and who isn’t a Jew.
It has nothing to do with being virtuous. They don’t discriminate based on ethnicity. End of point.
Wow, that came out harsh. I meant, end of point,
Orthodox Judaism is not racist, it’s religiocentric. You can marry anyone from any race, as long as they are religious jews. On the other hand, the Maharam Shik,(a talmid of the chasam sofer) for instance, takes it as a given that the same verse which prohibits intermarriage also prohibits marrying reform jews, or “neologen” as they were called, and for the same reason “lest they turn your son away from me”.
He doesn’t talk about athiests, but I would asume that it’s the same thing and the question just didn’t come up.
As for not recognizing marriages, that’s a technical thing. You can’t make a gay or polygamous marriage in NYC. It’s illegal, and therefore invalid. Any marrige which is illegal by jewish law is by definition not valid (according to jewish law). This is not miscegnnation laws.
Halfsours
I still owe you a comment on the other post, but I’m kind of busy with personal stuff the last week or two.
Mo nailed it. Of course if you can paint OJ as racist, there’s your home run — racism being the only true forbidden thought crime of our time.
Kind of ironic, though, DK.
Ron, I have no serious interest in painting OJ as racist. The only racism that really annoys me is liberal racism. The problem with OJ beliefs about gentiles is that they are unfounded and often silly.
What about Yichus and Zechus Avos?
Reb Leibish,
Zechus Avos is pretty vague…and it hasn’t proven all that useful in times of trouble.
As for yichus, well…that’s not just converts, but BTs as well, who have marred yichus, because of the well-known issue of behavioral problems that arise when a woman does not go the the mikvah prior to resuming sexual relations after menstruating.
mohammed,
You know I’m happy to hear it when you’re ready to dispense.
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