Beyond BT Explains Why Chumras (Stringencies) are for Suckers
Our frum friend Ron Coleman wrote a piece on Beyond BT (the baal teshuvah blog) called “Considerations When Taking on New Chumras,” about whether one “should or should not consider personal pleasure and desire when making those choices.” As an emblematic example (not meant for specific discussion) Ron mentioned the stringency of only consuming cholov yisroel products, dairy products produced from a cow that was milked under Jewish supervision (some very pious Jews do not trust a gentile to milk a cow, and apparently, this makes them holier yidden).
Of course, some flamers came out for this one.
EPA18 wrote,
A friend of yours in your community was once in the apartment of the late Rabbi Shimon Schwab, ztl. When Rov Schwab heard that the individual did not keep cholov yisroel he became quite agitated, and asked “How could you not keep cholov yisroel!!!” Surely, Rov Schwab knew all about Reb Moshe’s position on the issue. But times had changed, and the easy availability of cholov yisroel products in the New York area no doubt caused Rov Schwab to believe that Reb Moshe might have held differently nowadays, at least for those in the NY/NJ area.
Wait. There’s more. Ready?
Surely the individual involved enjoyed his haagen-dazs at the time, but he did change and ever since has been keeping cholov yisroel. We all made sacrifices on our way to becoming frum. But how often do you stop and think (at this point), “Boy, what I would do right now for a good lobster bisque?” It’s probably the same with taking on something like cholov yisroel. With the passage of time, the desire for non-cholov yisroel products wanes, especially when you - Ron - have a wonderful kosher supermarket in your town, which carries numerous cholov yisroel products, the quality of which, over the years, has definitely improved.
So at that point, as I am sure you can imagine, I was all ready to throw away all my mezuzas own “cholov stam” products -– and fuck it, my TV too, and I don’t even have cable — when Ron, who brought this whole issue up in the first place, and “cholov yisroel” as a neutral – no judgments, “what do you think?” example, wrote,
My personal experience, frankly, is that CY products are really overpriced and the milk goes sour as soon as I open it. I felt that I was being exploited during a certain period when I endeavored to buy CY where it was available even though I was not strict about the matter. I decided to stop being exploited.
So I guess Ron’s point – since he brought it up, and since he brought up CY as the emblematic example of stringencies as well…is that chumras are stupid and exploitive.
18 comments
attach schwab on his reaction…makes sense.
attack someone who does something that THEY want to do (assuming they don’t force others to do the same…and that is a big assumption) bad. dk I know you hate everyone frum but if they want to do something and don’t force others to do it and it doesn’t effect you…leave them alone.
ps. if they act like shwab and attack people then I agree with u
danny, this is all in the context of encouraging baal teshuvahs to adopt stringencies.
What someone does because they grew up with it is their business.
same deal though….if a BT wants to adopt something, how is it ur business
danny, haredi-kiruvniks pressure BTs into adopting all sorts of things they would be better off not adopting.
Cholov yisroel is a serious pain in the ass. So is wearing a black hat in July or January. Not going to a good college because it is a “sakanah nefashis” can prove problematic.
I have every right to speak out against the nonsense that is promoted in that world to people who come from a background that is liberal or secular. And the fact that many in that world would love to shut me and everyone else up to who speaks out against it reveals that they are well aware of the drawbacks of following their not so sound advice.
I think a better question is, why does anyone think that encouraging a BT to adopt chumras is a good idea? Isn’t it hard enough to be Modern Orthodox when you come from a family and background that isn’t even religious in a traditional sense? I think the question is on them, danny. Not me.
It depends on the chumra. Some make me slightly nauseous and a little disgusted like thinking Jews milking a cow makes better milk. I’m sure the Nazis though that about genuine purebred Germans whatever those are. Both ideas are idiotic.
Other chumras make me wonder if rabbis don’t get bored and for lack of things like darts or Yahtzee, don’t just make things up. Like sheitles versus snoods.
Still others make me question the ventilation quality and oxygen levels at various yeshivot.
I hear kiruv people saying they’d not demand but merely ask and no more than you were comfortable with, but your blog says otherwise. I’d stick to it anyhow and refer them back to their own websites. “Are you saying you lied when you said that? No? Then cholov stam is fine as long as the mashgichim has his job because if he could not be trusted, then the rabbi he answers to would not have him in that position, right? You’re not saying there’s a bunch of dishonest or inattentive rabbis putting out hechsherim are you?”
You know, like that.
I found this on a web forum:”The way I understand it is that Triangle K is run by a person that knows a tremendous amount of halacha, to the point that the institution finds heterim or loopholes to make things kosher. If someone wants to be strict on their kashrus it isn’t right to eat food based on these heterim, especially ones that follow opinions that are not accepted by most people.”
So the thinking here is not to go with the hechsher of an organization that knows too much.
That’s the kind of thinking that makes for bad chumrot.
“mashgichim has his job because if he could not be trusted, then the rabbi he answers to would not have him”
“mashgichim have their jobs because if they could not be trusted, then the rabbi they answer to would not have them”
Long day and my grammar skills are getting bent.
The CY issue is such a hot button. Cholov stam is not non-kosher, although I’ve been told by some people that it is, and that they would not drink CY milk out of a glass(!!!) that had been used for stam milk. So the insanity begins…
It seems to me that this is a chumra that’s gathered steam over the years because it exemplifies the us vs. them mentality that is so critically important to BTs and their creators. The idea that denial of legitimate desires= greater religiosity is not part of Judaism, as far as I’ve been able to tell… although there’s another religion that practices that sort of stuff. So, if I start seeing celibacy emerging as a chumra, my deepest suspicions will be confirmed.
Another note about CY and why I would never take on that chumra- I’ve seen CY products in a restaurant kitchen setting. The cheese was almost always moldy. If it wasn’t (although it would be soon…), it all tasted like monterrey jack. The ricotta was a nauseating shade of orange or gray, depending on the brand. An intelligent person would suspect that it’s a sham run by Jews who prey on other Jews. Why no one demands higher quality is beyond me.
At Pesach, I bought some CY mozzarella- the only kfP stuff in the store. When I got it home, the portion below the transparent part of the package was blue. I called a friend to ask if she had any I could borrow, and she breezily informed me that it’s always like that- just use the portion at the top. WTF???
ps- to be fair, I’ve had some great CY cheeses— all from Europe.
“An intelligent person would suspect that it’s a sham run by Jews who prey on other Jews.”
For Ron to employ the leftist word “exploited” on Beyond BT was amazing.
I guess some swaths of the frum community want everyday to be Pesach in the kashrut business.
I’d suggest this speaks to the whole issue of glatt, as we were discussing the other day.
It truly is ironic that I chose this dumb example as a suggested “question of the week” there — I wouldn’t even dignify it as a “post” — because, as anyone actually reading the thread will see, I hardly care what people do about their milk. I thought it was a bona fide interesting question whether you should consider your personal pleasure when making a decision about a religious practice.
I’m sure there’s another good example out there somewhere, yeah?
Yeah, I don’t know what it might be, either, that other good example.
In terms of “exploited,” yes, I did probably invalidate yet another shidduch for my offspring with that one, even among those who would of course never admit to “having Internet.” (Just as well.) I was goaded into it by the comment from my rather conflicted BT friend and neighbor in which he raised the R’ Schwab story. Which friend, ironically, doesn’t keep CY.
Yeah, six and a half dollars for a pack of blintzes is exploitation. I got tired of pouring milk down the drain.
Yeah, six and a half dollars for a pack of blintzes is exploitation. I got tired of pouring milk down the drain.
We hear ya, brother.
Chabadnik nephew told me he had it from a “reliable source” that mixing of milk still goes on; supposedly, this other fellow was on a farm and saw it being done with sow’s milk. I’ve asked him a few times what someone whom he trusts was doing on a farm on which hogs are kept. Never have gotten a straight answer.
Bottom line (to paraphrase our Christian fundamentalist friends) - the Rebbe said it, he observes it, and that settles it.
We have one kosher grocer left here in Brookline, the only one in the immediate Boston area, and when I go in and see the prices, I just about plotz. I can’t afford to be Jewish, Ron. I’m already a vegetarian, but, if that isn’t good enough for HaShem, and He insists upon my buying food with a hechsher - He can pay for it.
He does pay for it, Jeff!
Having said all that, DK, this doesn’t prove or disprove anything aboutchumros in general. I observe quite a few. I won’t list them here because that would be beyond crass, but you can guess at quite a few and I’ve told you quite a few more in person.
I observe them either because I think they make me a better person in any number of ways. Sometimes it is by keeping me further from a black-letter prohibition, even further than I strictly speaking have to keep, because knowing myself further is better and there is, by virtue of the existence of a bona fide stricter opinion, a legitimate approach to building that level of protection around me. In fact utilizing an acknowledged strict opinion this way is far preferable to inventing your ownde facto i>chumros that just turn into annoying shtick.
DK, it really all depends on whether a person is interested in spiritual growth as defined by the traditional understanding of the Torah. If he is, there are obviously roles for strictures, and for leniencies, as the individual’s case may be, and as is appropriate for his personal and social circumstances.
this other fellow was on a farm and saw it being done with sow’s milk.
Never happened. Your chabadnik nephew should screen his “reliable sources” more carefully. Besides, the original concern was with camel’s milk. Here’s an industry answer to why pig milk never really caught on:
“Porcine do lactate and their milk I will assume would taste great, because it is made of 8.5% fat in relation to the fat that makes up 3.5% of the components in cows milk. The other components such as lactose and water are found at nearly the same percentages in pig’s milk. However, pigs will on average produce 13 lbs of milk in a day as compared to cows that produce 65 lbs of milk on average per day. Pigs unlike cows cannot become pregnant while lactating and therefore possess a severe economic problem to producers. while pigs consume less feed per day, economics does not allow pigs to be a viable source of dairy products.”
Additionally, the chemical composition of pig’s milk is different from cow’s milk- you can’t make cheese out of it. My final point is that fresh cow’s milk is higher in fat than the milk that goes to market- fat is removed in processing; so what is the advantage of adding higher fat milk if it’s going to be removed anyway?
Judi, that’s quite fascinating, actually - but you had me at “never happened”!
I kind of realized belatedly that this whole post is named after me. I don’t always read titles. Do I have to pass on the porcine dairy issue?
Crikey, DK, come on. Don’t shtup my name into the title. I’m just a guy okay.
np.
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