The same could be said for the Persian Ayatollahs.

Torah leaders at least try to keep a bond between themselves and the people they rule.

cut them out of eretz yisrael, this addicted people fallow their own yetzhrh and the reflexion of themselves in the mirrows they have no truth and no morals what so ever.

“I do not think that it is necessarily the case that science and religion are natural opposites. In fact, I think that there is a very close connection between the two. Further, I think that science without religion is lame and, conversely, that religion without science is blind. Both are important and should work hand-in-hand.”

Not necessarily. A child’s fear of the dark can safely be ascribed to psychological motives. ”

Reb,

You glossed over what he was saying. He wasn’t saying that there are no instances in which faulty psychology can explain irrational choices. He was saying that ascribing everything to that is just a way to reaffirm one’s own beliefs without examining them. Give Big M some credit; from what I know of him he is introspective, fiercely intelligent, and works within his own framework of logic which is quite sound. I might not agree with his conclusions or the maxims he uses to get to them, but to attribute them merely to fault psychology is rather narrow-minded.

Not necessarily. A child’s fear of the dark can safely be ascribed to psychological motives. That fear tends to disappear as the child matures. Would you argue that the child’s fear arises intellectually and ascribing this fear to childish illusions is just a way of evading debate of the dangers of the dark?

The child’s fear of the dark is irrational but it is normal and to be expected. Why should one expect a child with a limited and immature grasp of reality to overcome its innermost irrational fears?

The situation is similar as regards pre-modern society. The Amoraim in 5th century Babylon as well as the Rishonim in medieval Europe had a very limited understanding of science. One cannot blame them for believing (like non Jews of those periods) in magic segulos, spirits and גיהנם let alone for thinking the world was created in six days less than six thousand years ago. They did not have the rational tools available to understand let alone overcome those neurosis which we all suffer. They did not benefit from the age of enlightenment. For them (as well as those Chassidim unlucky enough to end up in the asshole of Europe – Hungary) these neurosis remained as unconquered by rationality as a small child’s fear of the dark.

Mohammed, where to expect to get by quoting ancient or medieval religious authority? It does not work on us because we are past that stage of thinking. You are like a five year old trying to persuade his mother that she should fear the dark like the child does. It cannot work. That is why Freud (and Einstein) spoke of religion as childish illusion because once you have past that stage of understanding reality, you cannot go back.

To paraphrase a slogan your friends sometimes use- Hareidism and Rational Reality are diametrically opposed.

Illusions can be very powerful and can overcome our rationality. Most women have a fear of snakes. Telling them that a snake is harmless will not overcome their psychological discomfort because the discomfort is partially sexual.

Extreme religiosity also arises from deep neurosis (including the Oedipus Complex) which can overcome rationality.

Mohammed you also wrote :-

” “You shouldn’t believe” assumes that belief is a choice, and that there are no arguments for or against that someone might find compelling.”

Again wrong. Just as it is not a choice for a child to fear the dark because that fear is psychological, so is it not a choice for a someone to believe in גיהנם if raised isolated from rationality. That is why the most important issue facing Jewry today is the need to keep children (including those born to Haredim) away from Haredi isolationalist ‘education’ as it is disastrous for their mental and social development.

I am not being gratuitously offensive in stating that fact. If I wanted to be offensive I could have stated that feminists should consider themselves lucky that Haredim don’t shake their hands because whilst their handwashing technique is adequate to remove bad fairies from their fingertips it is inadequate to remove Shingella infected feces.