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	<title>Comments on: &#8220;They&#8217;ve been Aish&#8217;d&#8221;</title>
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	<description>kvetch \KVECH\, intransitive verb: To complain habitually. noun: 1. A complaint 2. A habitual complainer.</description>
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		<title>By: Jeff Eyges</title>
		<link>http://kvetcher.net/2008/07/987/theyve-been-aishd/comment-page-1/#comment-14493</link>
		<dc:creator>Jeff Eyges</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 07 Jan 2010 02:42:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://kvetcher.net/?p=987#comment-14493</guid>
		<description>Leah, the way you express yourself validates every one of DK&#039;s points. The tragedy is that you can&#039;t see it. You&#039;ve completely internalized all of propaganda they&#039;ve fed you.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Leah, the way you express yourself validates every one of DK&#8217;s points. The tragedy is that you can&#8217;t see it. You&#8217;ve completely internalized all of propaganda they&#8217;ve fed you.</p>
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		<title>By: Leah</title>
		<link>http://kvetcher.net/2008/07/987/theyve-been-aishd/comment-page-1/#comment-14492</link>
		<dc:creator>Leah</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 07 Jan 2010 02:30:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://kvetcher.net/?p=987#comment-14492</guid>
		<description>Well said, Jason!
The article picks out a few aspects of the trip, but completely ignores the key issue- the people going on these trips are not young children incapable of independent though, they are young adults, often very intelligent ones, and everyone signing up for a trip with Aish, or and other Kiruv (outreach) group, knows what they are letting themselves in for, and none of them are forced to go on the trip. These young adults could easy exclude themselves from the trip if they found it overwhelming or &quot;mentally exhausting&quot; but they don&#039;t, they have fantastic, wholesome experiences which they throughly enjoy. 
As for the complaint that people are immersed in a culture which they may not be comfortable with to start of with, but them return home &quot;clutching artscroll siddurs&quot;, it can be very easily understood in the following terms.
There is an idea in Judaism of &quot;na&#039;aseh v&#039;nishma&quot; (we will first do, then we will understand) This phrase was said by the Children of Israel at mount Sinai when they were receiving the Torah, complete with its 613 confusing commandments and the Oral Law taught to Moses. They saw these laws which they had accepted and promised HaShem that they would keep (like a Aish trip participant signing up for a trip in Israel where they know principles of Kashrut, Tzniut and Shabbat must be observed) and only after they had followed Hashem&#039;s commandments could they understand them and their subtle beauty. This can be likened to when a participant on one of the trips returning having seen this beauty, now understanding the importance of these seemingly antiquated laws, and choosing to change their lifestyle by welcoming all of our wonderful Mitzvot into their lives. 
The Kiruv movement thrives because of the ancient ideal of Na&#039;aseh V&#039;nishma, and this simply cannot be understood by those who close their minds, and do not attempt to embrace this lifestyle (i.e. the author of the article).

Leah</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well said, Jason!<br />
The article picks out a few aspects of the trip, but completely ignores the key issue- the people going on these trips are not young children incapable of independent though, they are young adults, often very intelligent ones, and everyone signing up for a trip with Aish, or and other Kiruv (outreach) group, knows what they are letting themselves in for, and none of them are forced to go on the trip. These young adults could easy exclude themselves from the trip if they found it overwhelming or &#8220;mentally exhausting&#8221; but they don&#8217;t, they have fantastic, wholesome experiences which they throughly enjoy.<br />
As for the complaint that people are immersed in a culture which they may not be comfortable with to start of with, but them return home &#8220;clutching artscroll siddurs&#8221;, it can be very easily understood in the following terms.<br />
There is an idea in Judaism of &#8220;na&#8217;aseh v&#8217;nishma&#8221; (we will first do, then we will understand) This phrase was said by the Children of Israel at mount Sinai when they were receiving the Torah, complete with its 613 confusing commandments and the Oral Law taught to Moses. They saw these laws which they had accepted and promised HaShem that they would keep (like a Aish trip participant signing up for a trip in Israel where they know principles of Kashrut, Tzniut and Shabbat must be observed) and only after they had followed Hashem&#8217;s commandments could they understand them and their subtle beauty. This can be likened to when a participant on one of the trips returning having seen this beauty, now understanding the importance of these seemingly antiquated laws, and choosing to change their lifestyle by welcoming all of our wonderful Mitzvot into their lives.<br />
The Kiruv movement thrives because of the ancient ideal of Na&#8217;aseh V&#8217;nishma, and this simply cannot be understood by those who close their minds, and do not attempt to embrace this lifestyle (i.e. the author of the article).</p>
<p>Leah</p>
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		<title>By: Jason</title>
		<link>http://kvetcher.net/2008/07/987/theyve-been-aishd/comment-page-1/#comment-6416</link>
		<dc:creator>Jason</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 Jul 2008 21:10:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://kvetcher.net/?p=987#comment-6416</guid>
		<description>I almost don&#039;t know where to start! Having read the original article on Jpost.com, my first thought was, &quot;What an all around badly written op-ed piece.&quot; I enjoy a good, thoughtful debate. But outright propoganda? 
Point by point:
&quot;their assumption that all our great-great-grandparents grew up in an Eastern European shtetl contributes to divisiveness among Jews, for it fails to acknowledge that Halacha has had a variety of interpretations across different times and cultures.&quot;
-Halacha has had a variety of manifestations depending on culture and time. There have been many codifications of Jewish law: Sephardi vs. Ashkenazi for example. Aish is Ashkenazi, they&#039;re not going to hold by halacha codified by a 16th century Sephardi Jew--two separate traditions (although the basic halachahs are very similar). Does this introduce divisiveness? No...Aish is simply not going to focus on an approach to Halachah other than Ashkenazi. If you&#039;re from a different tradition at one of these programs, you&#039;re probably in the wrong program and would want one to match your Jewish background.

&quot;The organizations present their Judaism as the uniquely accurate one, the Halacha that the non-Orthodox have merely forgotten but that all their ancestors invariably followed.&quot;
-All Ashkenazi ancestors did follow their approach to Halachah (with new interpretations arising from 19th-20th-21st century advancements) up until the Enlightenment. Halachah wasn&#039;t &quot;forgotten&quot;--a conscious decision was made by Jews to abandon the halachah they thought didn&#039;t apply, and that trend has continued in Conservatism, Reform, and Reconstructionism

&quot;A fellow participant on my trip was ignored by advisers when she remarked that for some Sephardim, the only halachic requirement was to be more modest than one’s neighbors&quot;
-Too many questions and not enough information presented here
1) Was this person Sephardic? Did they know really know the Sephardic approach to modesty? As readers we don&#039;t know
2) &quot;A fellow participant on my trip was ignored by advisers&quot;
   a. Were they really ignored? I don&#039;t know, there&#039;s no quotes here from the person, and the whole idea goes against the rest of the original article: that the program goes out of its way to make every participant feel like family. How can a program that ignores questions from and acts rudely towards its participants create an atmosphere where those participants will get brainwashed? Makes no sense.

&quot;Why the trips in the first place?

    They remove participants from their normal environment and place them in a new, vulnerable context. Traveling is a mentally exhausting experience in any case. How much more so that is in Israel, where one suddenly finds oneself part of the majority - an intensely emotional experience that these programs capitalize on. Foreign ideas suddenly seem reasonable: Instead of lecturing someone with mostly secular friends to stop eating pork, it is easier to just stop serving it for a month in a completely Jewish environment.&quot;
1. If you&#039;re going to learn about Judaism in a medium-term trip, doesn&#039;t it make sense to do it in Israel with other Jews instead of in Kansas with a mix of Christians? I&#039;m not sure that you can prove having a Jewish trip in Israel equates brainwashing
2. Anyone here travel on a guided trip? It&#039;s far from mentally exhausting. I&#039;ve been on Birthright, every step is planned out. I knew when I&#039;d eat, where I&#039;d be going, and material was clearly presented to me. Not mentally exhausting at all...actually, mentally stimulating.
3. Just like you&#039;d go to Costa Rica for an immersive Spanish speaking summer experience, you&#039;d go to Israel for an immersive Jewish learning experience. It is far easier to learn why to eat Kosher and then give it a shot in Israel than anywhere else. . Don&#039;t like keeping kosher? Ok, like the author says, you&#039;re free to do what you want when the trip is over. A clear line doesn&#039;t exist between providing a conducive environment for learning Orthodox Judaism and brainwashing someone. 

&quot;Within such an environment, participants are made to feel guilty about a lack of observance. The organizations criticize the secular lifestyle as hollow so that young people, always in search of identity, undergo a crisis of confusion about which path to take.

A FALSE dilemma is presented: Be secular and remain in impurity, where life is merely a game played for fun - or move toward a purpose and filled with holiness.&quot;

1. &quot;made to feel guilty&quot; Did the participants really feel guilty? How can the reader tell without direct quotes here? Again, the idea of trip leaders making their participants feel guilty goes against the picture Kubes paints in her full article about the trip going out of its way to create a welcoming environment. Trip participants might have noticed the disparity between their lifestyle and the Orthodox Jewish life style. Does guilt always manifest from that? Probably not--a participant could just as easily feel curiousity, repulsion, affinity, etc. Again, the journalism is not very good here and we will never know from the article what trip participants actually felt.

&quot;The organizations criticize the secular lifestyle as hollow so that young people, always in search of identity, undergo a crisis of confusion about which path to take.&quot;
1. Young, old, in-between, people are constantly in a search for identity. 
2. Again, too much Opinion not enough Editorial: Any lifestyle has its drawbacks, religious, secular, hedonistic, ascetic, whatever. Does pointing out the criticism of one society actually  cause a person to &quot;undergo a crisis of confusion about which path to take.&quot;&quot;? I don&#039;t know. A valid criticism presented to a teenager can be just that--an alternate view presented to a person who, based on life experience and age, is probably eager to stop taking things like their lifestyle at face value. Either way, from this article we don&#039;t know how the participants felt, and the slant is a complete generalization of something that could go either way.

&quot;A FALSE dilemma is presented: Be secular and remain in impurity, where life is merely a game played for fun - or move toward a purpose and filled with holiness.&quot;
-Again, sweeping generalization. Did author research Aish&#039;s stance of secular vs. religious? 
Actually, this is a FALSE DILEMMA because this organization does not propose that dilemma at all. Rather, they say &quot;you live in the secular world, how you deal with it is up to&quot;. And of course, as a religious institution (which every one of these &quot;Big Kiruv&quot; organizations is up front about), they have their own particular take on how to best navigate the secular world. But there&#039;s never a false dilemma presented between &quot;Being secular and remaining in impurity, where life is merely a game played for fun - or moving toward a purpose and filled with holiness.&quot;

Good Op/Eds present opinions, they don&#039;t over generalize or present vague or incorrect information.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I almost don&#8217;t know where to start! Having read the original article on <a href="http://Jpost.com" title="http://Jpost.com" target="_blank">Jpost.com</a>, my first thought was, &#8220;What an all around badly written op-ed piece.&#8221; I enjoy a good, thoughtful debate. But outright propoganda?<br />
Point by point:<br />
&#8220;their assumption that all our great-great-grandparents grew up in an Eastern European shtetl contributes to divisiveness among Jews, for it fails to acknowledge that Halacha has had a variety of interpretations across different times and cultures.&#8221;<br />
-Halacha has had a variety of manifestations depending on culture and time. There have been many codifications of Jewish law: Sephardi vs. Ashkenazi for example. Aish is Ashkenazi, they&#8217;re not going to hold by halacha codified by a 16th century Sephardi Jew&#8211;two separate traditions (although the basic halachahs are very similar). Does this introduce divisiveness? No&#8230;Aish is simply not going to focus on an approach to Halachah other than Ashkenazi. If you&#8217;re from a different tradition at one of these programs, you&#8217;re probably in the wrong program and would want one to match your Jewish background.</p>
<p>&#8220;The organizations present their Judaism as the uniquely accurate one, the Halacha that the non-Orthodox have merely forgotten but that all their ancestors invariably followed.&#8221;<br />
-All Ashkenazi ancestors did follow their approach to Halachah (with new interpretations arising from 19th-20th-21st century advancements) up until the Enlightenment. Halachah wasn&#8217;t &#8220;forgotten&#8221;&#8211;a conscious decision was made by Jews to abandon the halachah they thought didn&#8217;t apply, and that trend has continued in Conservatism, Reform, and Reconstructionism</p>
<p>&#8220;A fellow participant on my trip was ignored by advisers when she remarked that for some Sephardim, the only halachic requirement was to be more modest than one’s neighbors&#8221;<br />
-Too many questions and not enough information presented here<br />
1) Was this person Sephardic? Did they know really know the Sephardic approach to modesty? As readers we don&#8217;t know<br />
2) &#8220;A fellow participant on my trip was ignored by advisers&#8221;<br />
   a. Were they really ignored? I don&#8217;t know, there&#8217;s no quotes here from the person, and the whole idea goes against the rest of the original article: that the program goes out of its way to make every participant feel like family. How can a program that ignores questions from and acts rudely towards its participants create an atmosphere where those participants will get brainwashed? Makes no sense.</p>
<p>&#8220;Why the trips in the first place?</p>
<p>    They remove participants from their normal environment and place them in a new, vulnerable context. Traveling is a mentally exhausting experience in any case. How much more so that is in Israel, where one suddenly finds oneself part of the majority &#8211; an intensely emotional experience that these programs capitalize on. Foreign ideas suddenly seem reasonable: Instead of lecturing someone with mostly secular friends to stop eating pork, it is easier to just stop serving it for a month in a completely Jewish environment.&#8221;<br />
1. If you&#8217;re going to learn about Judaism in a medium-term trip, doesn&#8217;t it make sense to do it in Israel with other Jews instead of in Kansas with a mix of Christians? I&#8217;m not sure that you can prove having a Jewish trip in Israel equates brainwashing<br />
2. Anyone here travel on a guided trip? It&#8217;s far from mentally exhausting. I&#8217;ve been on Birthright, every step is planned out. I knew when I&#8217;d eat, where I&#8217;d be going, and material was clearly presented to me. Not mentally exhausting at all&#8230;actually, mentally stimulating.<br />
3. Just like you&#8217;d go to Costa Rica for an immersive Spanish speaking summer experience, you&#8217;d go to Israel for an immersive Jewish learning experience. It is far easier to learn why to eat Kosher and then give it a shot in Israel than anywhere else. . Don&#8217;t like keeping kosher? Ok, like the author says, you&#8217;re free to do what you want when the trip is over. A clear line doesn&#8217;t exist between providing a conducive environment for learning Orthodox Judaism and brainwashing someone. </p>
<p>&#8220;Within such an environment, participants are made to feel guilty about a lack of observance. The organizations criticize the secular lifestyle as hollow so that young people, always in search of identity, undergo a crisis of confusion about which path to take.</p>
<p>A FALSE dilemma is presented: Be secular and remain in impurity, where life is merely a game played for fun &#8211; or move toward a purpose and filled with holiness.&#8221;</p>
<p>1. &#8220;made to feel guilty&#8221; Did the participants really feel guilty? How can the reader tell without direct quotes here? Again, the idea of trip leaders making their participants feel guilty goes against the picture Kubes paints in her full article about the trip going out of its way to create a welcoming environment. Trip participants might have noticed the disparity between their lifestyle and the Orthodox Jewish life style. Does guilt always manifest from that? Probably not&#8211;a participant could just as easily feel curiousity, repulsion, affinity, etc. Again, the journalism is not very good here and we will never know from the article what trip participants actually felt.</p>
<p>&#8220;The organizations criticize the secular lifestyle as hollow so that young people, always in search of identity, undergo a crisis of confusion about which path to take.&#8221;<br />
1. Young, old, in-between, people are constantly in a search for identity.<br />
2. Again, too much Opinion not enough Editorial: Any lifestyle has its drawbacks, religious, secular, hedonistic, ascetic, whatever. Does pointing out the criticism of one society actually  cause a person to &#8220;undergo a crisis of confusion about which path to take.&#8221;"? I don&#8217;t know. A valid criticism presented to a teenager can be just that&#8211;an alternate view presented to a person who, based on life experience and age, is probably eager to stop taking things like their lifestyle at face value. Either way, from this article we don&#8217;t know how the participants felt, and the slant is a complete generalization of something that could go either way.</p>
<p>&#8220;A FALSE dilemma is presented: Be secular and remain in impurity, where life is merely a game played for fun &#8211; or move toward a purpose and filled with holiness.&#8221;<br />
-Again, sweeping generalization. Did author research Aish&#8217;s stance of secular vs. religious?<br />
Actually, this is a FALSE DILEMMA because this organization does not propose that dilemma at all. Rather, they say &#8220;you live in the secular world, how you deal with it is up to&#8221;. And of course, as a religious institution (which every one of these &#8220;Big Kiruv&#8221; organizations is up front about), they have their own particular take on how to best navigate the secular world. But there&#8217;s never a false dilemma presented between &#8220;Being secular and remaining in impurity, where life is merely a game played for fun &#8211; or moving toward a purpose and filled with holiness.&#8221;</p>
<p>Good Op/Eds present opinions, they don&#8217;t over generalize or present vague or incorrect information.</p>
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		<title>By: Sarah/froylein</title>
		<link>http://kvetcher.net/2008/07/987/theyve-been-aishd/comment-page-1/#comment-6356</link>
		<dc:creator>Sarah/froylein</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 20 Jul 2008 07:26:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://kvetcher.net/?p=987#comment-6356</guid>
		<description>Right on, Mohammed.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Right on, Mohammed.</p>
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		<title>By: HalfSours</title>
		<link>http://kvetcher.net/2008/07/987/theyve-been-aishd/comment-page-1/#comment-6354</link>
		<dc:creator>HalfSours</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 20 Jul 2008 01:28:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://kvetcher.net/?p=987#comment-6354</guid>
		<description>Tisk tisk, Mo. You know better than that. Not only our own, but half the time yours as well...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Tisk tisk, Mo. You know better than that. Not only our own, but half the time yours as well&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: mohammed</title>
		<link>http://kvetcher.net/2008/07/987/theyve-been-aishd/comment-page-1/#comment-6348</link>
		<dc:creator>mohammed</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Jul 2008 21:56:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://kvetcher.net/?p=987#comment-6348</guid>
		<description>EV
woman in control of their minds?! what minds?

(Hi HS, Sarah )</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>EV<br />
woman in control of their minds?! what minds?</p>
<p>(Hi HS, Sarah )</p>
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		<title>By: HalfSours</title>
		<link>http://kvetcher.net/2008/07/987/theyve-been-aishd/comment-page-1/#comment-6346</link>
		<dc:creator>HalfSours</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Jul 2008 20:04:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://kvetcher.net/?p=987#comment-6346</guid>
		<description>I went to school on the mean streets of Long Island; there were bare shoulders abound!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I went to school on the mean streets of Long Island; there were bare shoulders abound!</p>
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		<title>By: Sarah/froylein</title>
		<link>http://kvetcher.net/2008/07/987/theyve-been-aishd/comment-page-1/#comment-6342</link>
		<dc:creator>Sarah/froylein</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Jul 2008 19:14:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://kvetcher.net/?p=987#comment-6342</guid>
		<description>Actually, it&#039;s not uncommon that teens try to look older than they are. As they are growing up, they do not want to be mistaken for children anymore. Now, from what I&#039;ve heard (many / all?) schools over there expect their students to at least  wear short sleeves, over her bare arms aren&#039;t even uncommon among faculty during the summer months. So over here, tank tops wouldn&#039;t be considered sexual; slipping straps cannot always be avoided depending on the cut and the cloth (even less so with spaghetti strap tops), but rest assured, they don&#039;t slip far. More and more schools here have been establishing dress codes here over the past few years as apparently many youjhs don&#039;t learn the distinction between &#039;slutty&#039; (though they often do want to achieve that look - thanks to the dancers in many hiphop videos) and &#039;casual&#039; anymore. The bad thing, according to my experience, is that those students that doll up tend to feel superior to others. Another bad thing is that many mothers these days want to be &quot;best friends&quot; - and raise thoroughly spoilt brats.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Actually, it&#8217;s not uncommon that teens try to look older than they are. As they are growing up, they do not want to be mistaken for children anymore. Now, from what I&#8217;ve heard (many / all?) schools over there expect their students to at least  wear short sleeves, over her bare arms aren&#8217;t even uncommon among faculty during the summer months. So over here, tank tops wouldn&#8217;t be considered sexual; slipping straps cannot always be avoided depending on the cut and the cloth (even less so with spaghetti strap tops), but rest assured, they don&#8217;t slip far. More and more schools here have been establishing dress codes here over the past few years as apparently many youjhs don&#8217;t learn the distinction between &#8217;slutty&#8217; (though they often do want to achieve that look &#8211; thanks to the dancers in many hiphop videos) and &#8216;casual&#8217; anymore. The bad thing, according to my experience, is that those students that doll up tend to feel superior to others. Another bad thing is that many mothers these days want to be &#8220;best friends&#8221; &#8211; and raise thoroughly spoilt brats.</p>
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		<title>By: HalfSours</title>
		<link>http://kvetcher.net/2008/07/987/theyve-been-aishd/comment-page-1/#comment-6337</link>
		<dc:creator>HalfSours</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Jul 2008 18:50:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://kvetcher.net/?p=987#comment-6337</guid>
		<description>Impugnment on EV&#039;s (sound) character aside, I really feel that most young girls who are overtly sexual in their dress and behavior suffer from a lack of self-respect; if a girl feels that she is beautiful and otherwise deserving of positive male attention, it doesn&#039;t occur to her to resort to &quot;slipping tank-top straps&quot;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Impugnment on EV&#8217;s (sound) character aside, I really feel that most young girls who are overtly sexual in their dress and behavior suffer from a lack of self-respect; if a girl feels that she is beautiful and otherwise deserving of positive male attention, it doesn&#8217;t occur to her to resort to &#8220;slipping tank-top straps&#8221;.</p>
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		<title>By: HalfSours</title>
		<link>http://kvetcher.net/2008/07/987/theyve-been-aishd/comment-page-1/#comment-6336</link>
		<dc:creator>HalfSours</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Jul 2008 18:18:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://kvetcher.net/?p=987#comment-6336</guid>
		<description>EV,

I wouldn&#039;t expect you to have any qualms with underage girls in compromising positions. :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>EV,</p>
<p>I wouldn&#8217;t expect you to have any qualms with underage girls in compromising positions. <img src='http://kvetcher.net/cms/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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