Stupid Big Aish on Batman
There is almost no common denominator too low for Big Aish to try and tap into. The most inane fantasy…the most vanilla pop cultural references…Big Aish will either try to usurp the party, or use it as a straw men, a false dichotomy to the superior “authentic” Judaism of Big Aish.
This is a case study of the former. Big Aish has reprinted an article first published on the silly religious-Zionist site named Tzipiyah about how Judaism has something to do with the newest Batman movie.
No. Judaism does not, in fact, “side with Batman.” Judaism is not about vigilantism. Nor is it about superheroes who fly like bats.
The Judaism of Big Aish and Tzipiyah is a fantasy Judaism, with little or no connection to the actual paradigms of our religion and history. If this is traditional Judaism’s answer to assimilation, rest assured that the bulk of American Jewry will be Christian within a generation or two.
And if Big Aish really represents traditional Judaism, well…they are probably better off.
40 comments
fact of the matter is orthodox judaism dislikes television.
Come on, Judaism is totally about Batman.
I once read that two Jewish kids invented Superman. maybe there is an analogy.
“Judaism sides with Batman. This world is not fundamentally bad; it is not hurtling towards chaos. It is our mission to fix this world. We need to realize that even during the hardest of times, the Almighty is still leading us towards the greatest of times. We cannot always understand why through these specific means or how it is done, but every day we are slowly moving closer to complete redemption, every day is one of hope and optimism. ”
I’m failing to see in that article where it claims that Judaism is about or in any way comfortable with vigilantism.
I’m failing to see in that article where it claims that Judaism is about or in any way comfortable with vigilantism.
And I’m failing to see how Batman movies have anything to do with Judaism.
DK strikes again. another dashing swipe at the source of all evil in the world, aish HaTorah.
DK, get a life man, people are starving in darfur, and pissing in their pants sleeping rough in your city… and this is whatyou choose to highlight.
and not only that……but….
you take an article that makes some broad, general comparisons between the powers of good and evil etc, and turn it into a diatribe.
you are a writer and you know the power of metaphor. let it go DK.
you know, its funny, but you do the very thing that you accuse aish of doing. you take words out of peoples mouths, distort them, twist them and express them in a way that fits your cynical purpose.
you hate aish, so you find examples that if you twist them enough, back up your preexisting hatred.
you accuse aish and others of dishonesty, and painting a simplistic, untrue picture of Judaism (a judaism that you clearly do not understand, by the way) but you empoly the same method that you attack.
when i read the comments you post responding to people, its like reading a transcript of a dialogue between a calm parent and a spoilt child. DK, i love the way you pout and stamp your feet, but to anyone over the age of 15, your positions just sound spoilt. please rant intelligently. you have good things to say, but this stuff……. banal.
i think the only person you are kidding is yourself.
(a judaism that you clearly do not understand, by the way)
“Peter”? Uhmm yeah…
BTW, the organized Orthodoxy’s take on religion as represented and sold by many a kiruv organization is a watered down, Puritanized version of the already non-scholarly Orthodoxy of Eastern European Jewry of the 18th and 19th century.
peter, I disagree. The whole “Judaism sides with Batman” essay is emblematic that Big Aish resorts to comparing and contrasting utterly irrelevant pop culture and just plain silliness in order to sell its glitzy brand of ultra-Orthodox Judaism.
Why not admit that Aish is as dishonest as it is shameless? Why not just admit that at least this essay was a disgrace? You rail with general charges without answering the specific ones of this post.
That makes no sense. So explain, peter. Explain for my readers. Tell them how this Batman movie proves ultra-Orthodox Judaism is the true path. Go ahead, peter. We’re all ears.
i dont think it is trying to prove ultra orthodox judaism is true. it seems to me that it is paralleling the battle between the joker and batman and the battle for morality versus chaos. i dont think that this metaphor is the domain of the ultra orthodox. the writer is quoting rav kook, for Gods sake, hardly the most often referenced Ultra ortho Rabbi!!!!!!
many people want to change the world, and think that the world needs to be changed, that evil needs to be banished, if you will.
in fact, it would seem to me that this blog is a perfect example of a man trying to right the wrongs he feels are perpetrated by aish and other haredi orgs in their so called superficial presentations of complex questions.
to me its all the same. so yes, DK, I view you as a type of batman. as i do aish.
again, let me stress, i applaud your attempts to find fault where fault truly lies…. but i think you need to be more critical.
not everything aish does is stupid, nor is it always deserving of the sneering commentary of you and your cronies.
when you attack aish indiscriminately you limit the influence of your criticism to the already converted, and lessen your own credibility. instead of sounding honest and focused, you come off as being obsessed and slightly OCD.
hmmmm…. the lady doth protest to much, methinks…….
im not sure that is true. i have spent a lot of time researching this point. it seems to me that most outreach orgs teach philosophy a bit like it is a halacha sefer, but in the area of hashkofah. so they just tell you the bottom line and are not so focussed on all the other opinions.
in more advanced classes, they tend to be more open, btw.
now you may not like it, but dont confuse simplicity with misrepresentation, or lies.
hope you are well.
that last post, number 10, was to sarah/froylein
sorry
Peter,
“…you do the very thing that you accuse aish of doing. you take words out of peoples mouths, distort them, twist them and express them in a way that fits your cynical purpose.”
True.
“a judaism that you clearly do not understand, by the way”
Horse-shit. I have no idea who you are, and already I know that DK can learn you under the table.
Peter, I can assure you that what they teach you is next to nothing compared to what can be learnt about Judaism. My bf was involved with one of those organizations, and, being the quick learner that he is, he realized that they first of all hardly teach anything, secondly hardly know anything, and thirdly hardly believe anything themselves. He resorted to libraries to learn about Judaism instead. But the attempts of brain-washing and guilting him into line by his former fellow classmates and teachers is still there. Why? Possibly because he’s heir to some bigger biz. They certainly don’t care much about his well-being or, ack, soul as they positively ignored him during a longer period while he was in a seriously critical medical condition. As far as I’m concerned, I enjoy thinking of those people as hypocrites when I’m in a good mood, f*cktards (thanks to Mobius for me picking up that word from his blog) in an average mood.
people arent perfect. nor are organisations, and im sure your boyfriend had a bad time. but non of this is the policy of these places, and i fail to see why you are so focused on what they do wrong all the time. these places are good for the jews. bottom line. most people in them are not retards, or brainwashed, but good jews, looking to learn and understand Torah. let them be. highlight mistakes. thats good, but the venom that you spit. its weird. why. cos they dont agree with you? please. thats the very close minded ness you seek to fight.
but you seem clever. so tell me….im interested in what your judaism look s like.
to half sours “horse shit” accusation.
thanks for agreeing on the first point. but as for the second……
i like to argue points that win or lose based on merit. i dont know DK. and i dont care who can learn better. i care about whats real and true. the chareidim you attack evaluate truth based on who said it. dont fall into that trap, half sour, or we will have to change your name to half ass. think for your self big boy. if you dont agree…. tell me why.
im saying DK doesn’t understand Judaism. you explain to me why he does.
i promise not to compare brain sizes, but just to listen to your ideas
Peter, if–in theory–these places such as Aish, Neve, OS do in fact lie, mislead, deceive, exaggerate, misrepresent, as I assert they do, would you agree that they should cease and desist relying on such tactics to recruit secular and liberal Jews into ultra-Orthodoxy? Or would you argue that for a SPIRITUAL PUKACH NEFESH these activities are permitted?
the question is not whether you can lie for pikuach nefesh, of course you can.
you do it all the time.
you totally lie on this blog. because you feel you are trying to wake people up to the truth (yours of course!!:))
the question is, is it pikuach nefesh that most Jews live without G-d and Torah. utterly ignorant of anything to do with Judaism.
i think it is pikuach nefesh. ai think people are created, and that the world is not a random place, and that life without understanding what life is for, is unlikely to be a life well directed.
in addition, i think you can educate people in a basic way (like aish etc) and hope that they develop a more sophisticated approach as they mature. anything else would be asking students to walk before they run.
sophistication in ones Judaism, people can get that on their own. and should.
by the way. i dont think the kiruv orgs do lie.
i think they just educate in a way that is much more in line with the way that most people think. simple. uncomplex. slightly unsophisticated.
your blog is not like that at all. you educate the other way. ( more my style)
but they have a couple of million readers a month. and you have how many?
most people want it simple. when they understand simple, then they get complex.
seek to understand first DK. then to be understood.
Peter, if I had the faintest suspicion that my bf’s “bad time” had in any way initiated by him, I’d remain quiet about the issue. Having seen though with what fervor those organizations try to get back at dissenters, even non-critical ones that simply have decided kiruv isn’t for them, the sneaky approaches they’ve even tried to intimidate me with - which were by far to uniform to be random and overall bespeaking an attitude of superiority, authority and influence that I wouldn’t ascribe any of those orgs, I’ve come to the conclusion that I’ll do lots of people a great favour if I discourage them from following those orgs and rather encourage them to pursue Jewish studies at academic institutions.
too*
peter, I show time after time how Big Aish lies. You have not shown how I do. And they have more traffic than I do because they pump a crap load of money into their site. They have that money because they lie to people. They have Michael Douglas giving them cash. Now…how do you think that happened?
Dear DK.
who i respect, by the way.
listen, i dont think im gonna change anyones mind here.
im telling you honestly, that ive read a lot of your stuff and you evaluate them according to your own sense of what is right and wrong, but you fail to understnd where they are coming from. there are some people that have a bad time there, but most people do really well there, and get a lot from it. go through the aish.com site. i bet you disagree with less than 2% of what they write.i guess what im saying is that most people will grow from aish.com. and some people wont. but thats like everything, and to try and turn them from mass level educators into devils and fiends is just plain silly.
as for your examples of aish lies, i think that you are a little self congratulatory. they arent lies. they are just angles that you don’t agree with. its not the same thing at all.
and they dont have michael douglas giving them money. that is a lie. (does that count as pointing out one of yours?)
with respect
p
sarah.
im fine with what you say, if thats your experience. i cant argue with it. and as for your recommendation about where to learn Torah, well….i think academic judaism is a bit bullshitty. but maybe im naive. or maybe my teachers told me to say that:)
but your big kiruv experience, has not been mine.
so is big aish/neve/ohr good for me, and bad for you. or is it bad for all, because your BF had a bad time there, so now they can do no good.
no, peter. Michael Douglas igves Big Aish money: http://www.ynetnews.com/articl.....79,00.html
this is a great example of what i mean about your distortions.
kirk douglas gave money about 10 years ago now, to aish for this theatre in this building. i never heard about michaels involvement. Ill ask him next time we see each other (just kidding) im happy to stand corrected, but im pretty sure it was just kirk. either way, not important.
here is the bit that is important.
but why do you decide that the reason he gave money was because he was lied to.
thats distortion.
its exactly what you hate about aish. an analysis based on your predisposition.
not right mr dk, not right at all.
now dont get all bitchy with me. im just pointing out that sometimes you distort.
and that most people like aish/ohr/neve
and that your way is not the only way
and that they dont lie. you just hate the way they educate. ( i feel the same way about the way math is taught in highschool, but i dont trun it into a conspiricy… big math…)
Peter, if they wanted to do good, they wouldn’t reject the traditional approach to Jewish studies, which is utterly critical. Jewish scholars adopted the Socratelic dialogue as its preferred form of dialectics for good reason. Those kiruv places are indoctrinators, nothing more. Academic institutes offering Jewish studies / Judaistics usually have religious people teaching, but those people don’t turn a blind eye to research in general and the cultural contexts in which Judaism has developed in particular. If they wanted to do good, they wouldn’t try to guilt-trip dissenters. If they wanted to do good, they would actually care about their former students’ well-being.
If I only taught my students about volcanic eruptions but not about the different layers earth consists of and slates moving simply because I don’t want them to know about it lest they might ask more in-depth questions I’m not qualified to answer, I’d be an extremely bad teacher for selling my students short and teaching them below their educational value. If I still charged their parents full fees for what I portray a profound education in geography but which anyone with a little clue of the topic can determine is not by my own choice, I’d be a crook.
You can be religious and study at academic institutes. Those offer knowledge that goes far beyond what those orgs offer, but to my knowledge have never brought a believer to give up his beliefs, rather helped to define them.
Dear Sarah
Your note seems to be divided into 9 points. I have paraphrased your prose, and tried to answer some of your points in caps lock after each idea. I’m sorry if I have misrepresented your thoughts. I did the best I could.
1. Because they don’t pay attention to academic research, not only have they changed how Judaism should be taught, but actually the method used by all yeshivot is faulty.
I THINK IT’S IMPORTANT TO UNDESTAND THAT THEY DONT THINK THEY CHANGED THE WAY JUDAISM IS TAUGHT. ITS JUST THAT MOST YESHIVOS DON’T AGREE WITH THE TYPE OF IDEAS YOU OR I MIGHT THINK RELEVANT, SO THEY DON’T TEACH THEM. NO INSTITUTION ANYWHERE TEACHES ALL IDEAS ON ALL TOPICS. ESPECIALLY ONES THAT THEY THINK ARE MIRED IN FAULTY LOGIC, ARROGANCE, OR SIMPLY FULL OF SHIT. YESHIVOT HAVE A DIFFERENT PEDAGOGIC SYSTEM TO UNIVERSITY. THAT DOES NOT MEAN THEY ARE NOT INTELLECTUALLY HONESTY.
2. Therefore they are indoctrinators.
AGAIN, TO DISAGREE WITH ANOTHER THINKER, AND TO EXCLUDE HIS THOUGHT FROM A CLASS, DOES NOT MAKE A RABBI IN ONE OF THOSE PLACES AN INDOCTRINATOR. IN CAMBRIDGE, THEY DIDN’T TEACH KUZARI EITHER, AND THEY CERTAINLY DID NOT TEACH KELLERMAN. SERIOUSLY, THE ONLY TRADITIONAL TORAH THINKERS THEY MENTIONED, WERE CITED TO “HIGHLIGHT THE STUPIDITY AND NEADERTHAL ATTITUDE OF MEDEIVAL THINKERS IN MODERN GARB” ( THAT IS A PARTIAL QUOTE, BY THE WAY, STRAIGHT FROM A CAMBRIDGE CLASS). DISAGREEMENT DOES NOT MEAN INDOCTRINATION.
3. Anyone who dissents is made to feel guilty. OR MAYBE MADE TO FEEL LIKE THEY ARE BEING INTELLECTUALLY DISHONEST. BUT AS FOR GUILTING…..IF THAT HAPPENS ANYWHERE, IT’S BAD.
4. The representatives of the institutions don’t care about their former student’s welfare unless those students agreed with them. I THINK THAT IS YOU TAKING YOUR PERSONAL EXPERIENCE AND ASSUMING IT IS EVERYONE ELSES. I LEFT LONG AGO, DID NOT “FOLLOW THE PATH”, BUT WAS NEVER GUILTED OR MADE TO FEEL BAD. THE OPPOSITE IN FACT.
5. The reason the teachers don’t teach with reference to academic research is because the students might ask more in depth questions that the teachers aren’t qualified to answer. SEE POINT ONE. I THINK THIS SUGGESTION IS SENSATIONALIST AND MORE THAN A LITTLE JUDGMENTAL. .
6. That makes the teachers bad teachers????????
7. That makes the programs that collect fees into crooks.??????
8. Academic institutions don’t do any of the above. YOU NEVER WENT TO CAMBRIDGE.
9. No one ever lost their beliefs by studying in academic institutions Jewish studies departments. I JUST DON’T THINK THIS IS ACCURATE. MOST OF MY CLASS DID IN CAMBRIDGE.
Hope you are well.
p
Peter, thanks for taking yor time to respond. However, your paraphrasing does not always reflect what I’ve stated above. I still stand by my claim though that instutions that teach but do not encourage critical thinking make use of indoctrination; that’s pretty much what the word means. I still stand by my claim that if I advertise a product but don’t deliver it but, in comparison, deliver an inferior one, and charge full price, I’m a crook. I still stand by my claim that if a teacher doesn’t teach about the pieces as they are connected by choice but just about one piece that fits their bill, it’s a case of a bad teacher. In addition, while academic teachers might have their pet peeves, they do not usually keep you from accessing other, contradictory sources of information, particularly not under threat of getting expelled, excommunicated or ending up unmarried or in eternal condemnation. If they do, those people don’t belong in academia.
If your background is academic as you say, you’ll certainly know that proof is found in empirical data. If 80% of those former BTs I know have suffered from guilt-tripping, nasty gossip, outcasting etc., my empirical data tells me my experiences are far from being random.
I’m friends with several rabbis that teach at yeshivot, but all of them uniformely say that kiruvnik rabbis are ill-educated when it comes to Judaism, and that is something that I’ve also observed with many BTs that will pursue the one or select few issues they did learn about or they did understand with such stringency that they forget what being a mentsh is.
peter,
I’m sorry, I couldn’t decipher the majority of the points you were trying to make; they all seemed like non sequitors. I did understand this though:
“im saying DK doesn’t understand Judaism. you explain to me why he does.”
Ugh, no. You made an unfounded accusation. YOU back it up. DK has an insiders understanding of Judaism because he studied it for several YEARS in the same insitutions you seem to be defending as legitimate. If he does not have a proper understanding of Judaism, than those insitutions must not teach about it very well.
Also, I’m very rarely directly pejorative, but I have to say there is somethign about your insistence on having everybody explain the minutia of their thought process that I find very off-putting (read: creepy). Can I venture a guess that you either work in kiruv, want to work in kiruv, or were recently (as in within the past 2 years) mekarev yourself?
To Sarah and to Half Sours
look. i dont work in kiruv, i dont want too and ive not been mekareved recently or anything like that.
it seems to me that your standards are different to me. and thoroughly contradictory on everything other than all kiruv is superficial.
these very same rabbis are unqualified to teach Judaism according to Sarah, and have produced a clear thinking Talmid Chacham in DK according to Half Sour. they are manipulative lying cowards according to Sarah, but that just was not my experience.
in terms of me dissecting peoples thought process, thats just how I gain understanding of what people mean and say and think.
maybe that is what protected me when i was exposed to the evil baal tshuva educators that i learned with over the years. i actually tried to understand them, rather than be infuriated by the fact that i was sitting opposite someone that disagreed with what my grandmother and Hollywood and college professors had taught me growing up. also, i wasn’t so tortured by years of being single and frum ( a very hard, hard situation) so badly that i couldn’t function healthily so i began to start to blame religion and then feel better as i dropped halacha ( which is the essence of what i think bothers DK)
re the rabbis
i always found them open to my questions, enjoying the intellectual sparring, and with a lot of personal integrity and depth.
enough of this. i feel it will make no difference.
with warmest regards. keep on fighting the fight. i don’t feel you guys have listened to me but at least we have tried.
p
be well..
but at least we have tried
Honi soit qui mal y pense…
i wasn’t so tortured by years of being single and frum ( a very hard, hard situation) so badly that i couldn’t function healthily so i began to start to blame religion and then feel better as i dropped halacha ( which is the essence of what i think bothers DK)
While that was a problem, the most troubling part of the BT experience in term of lifestyle was the underachievement espoused by the ultra-Orthodox rabbis and institutions.
DK,
forgive me for not knowing the background, but what happenned? they told you to be stay poor or something? (im serious here, i really dont know what happenned)
sarah
it is honni
when you throw conciliatory comments back at people, take care to dismount from your arrogant steed and check your spelling!
in friendship (as defined by the rambam)
p
Peter, ahemmm, “when you throw conciliatory comments back at people, take care to dismount from your arrogant steed and check your spelling!”
http://www.randomhouse.com/wot.....e=19960827
Neither Judaism, nor English nor French seem to be your particular strength. Have you ever considered taking up play-doh?
Sarah,
http://www.amazon.ca/Honni-soi.....225315444X
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0938668/
and finally, even though it is clear that the usual spelling is honni, here is something conciliatory, once again.
http://forum.wordreference.com.....p?t=273035
try and be nicer. it costs nothing. im not your enemy, and its not necessary to get personal and snipe.
again, in friendship
p
Peter, don’t play the victim; that role ill befits you.
The line clearly is a quotation of the motto of the Order of the Garter and accordingly has to be spelled the way it originated. This much you should know had you studied at an academic institution.
http://www.handembroideryshop......YAL_8.html
P.S.: You’re not important enough to be my enemy.
http://commons.wikimedia.org/w.....ter_01.jpg
http://ansmagazine.com/spring06/warmedals.html
Peter,
“it seems to me that your standards are different to me. and thoroughly contradictory on everything other than all kiruv is superficial.”
Yes, that might be so because we are DIFFERENT PEOPLE. I realize that the kiruvniks might have taught yout hat women are, in essence, all the same, but try and keep up here! Also, you know nothing about what I think about Judaism, or Kiruv. I haven’t stated my thoughts clearly to you, or anyone else really. I’m not chastising you for making assumptions. You should know that you’re assumptions as I’ve read them are wrong.
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