Hating on the haredim: “Racist,” or civic reponsibility?
There is a disturbing development on Jewschool, and one we need to monitor carefully. Some are resorting to attempting to silence criticism about the ultra-Orthodox by appealing to a false comparison of race and gender differences.
Matthue Roth, an up and coming Jewish writer, wrote,
Why, among “progressive” Jews, is it constantly okay to say things about Orthodox Jews that you wouldn’t say about Black people, gay people, women or the Amish?
At first, I thought, oh, the progressives are at it again, taking “sensitivity” to yet a new and even sillier level.
Except…Matthue Roth is actually…Orthodox. A baal teshuvah. And he isn’t really all that progressive, as EV discovered. Unless you would deem Agriprocessors “exaggerated” misdeeds as a “mistake” for which a public apology should suffice.
Matthue says all we have to do is be more sensitive and respectful, and The Orthodox will just run to find a middle ground with us.
Like it or not, most Orthodox Jews will *never* listen to what you guys say. Because their knee-jerk reaction is that liberal Jews are only interested in attacking us, they don’t really understand what our world is like, or any one of a zillion reasons that all add up to the same thing: You don’t respect us, you don’t understand us, and you don’t want to.
And there’s really no reason that they should ever listen to someone like that.
So, if you’d like to be really effective in making comments on a culture that is not your own, you might try opening your mind to us “hypersensitive” folks.
It isn’t about changing their minds. The haredim will NEVER listen to ANYTHING we have to say.
Update: Matthew Roth has clarified his positions in the comments here and on Jewschool. I would like to retract my concerns about him.
40 comments
Hey DK,
Call me naive (again), but I really believe that most Orthodox people aren’t living in a box. They aren’t all out to ignore secular Jews and pretend they’re the only real people. (I seriously think Hasidic Jews are the reason that Borat made so much money in the first place.) Orthodox Jews listen a great deal to what other people think — it’s just that sometimes, when the name-calling and saying “Orthodox Jews are dishonest” comes out, like anyone else, Orthodox Jews tend to not stick around for dessert.
As far as not really being progressive, as I said to Eli, if you don’t think I’m a critic of:
a) Rubashkin,
b) eating meat in the first place, or
c) close-minded Orthodox people
then, please, read my book “Never Mind the Goldbergs.” As a matter of fact, feel free to check out anything that’s ever come out of my mouth. Not to pimp my book *too* much, but you can’t assume that every Orthodox Jew out there follows a certain paradigm.
“The Orthodox” don’t do anything, just like “The Jews” don’t do anything. There isn’t an Orthodox board of trustees — there’s just a hell of a lot of people who read and speak and do different things with our lives. And most of us, I really do believe, would be offended if someone called us dishonest.
I’m not at all opposed to exposing negative material about Haredi Jews. But I think that, in order to cause constructive damage — the kind of damage that leads to real change, not the kind that just turns people off — it works better to stick to real criticism, and not just say that Orthodox Jews are dishonest people and that you can’t trust them.
matthue,
When people — say, Rubashkin, and her enabler, the OU — are so concerned with the Halachic parameters of kashrut and not at all about basic human decency, we have a right to speak out and say, something shmeckt nit frish.
I don’t assume anything on an individual level. But on an institutional level, we are seeing unfortunate and repetitive patterns.
To your Yiddish, I can just say amen.
As for the institutional level, it is true, suckily enough. In my dreams, I’d like to see more press coverage of Orthodox reactions to this stuff — frum protesters in Iowa; Orthodox communal mobilization against the pedophilia fucked-upness — but bad news sells better than good news. And there is, unfortunately, far more of it.
“frum protesters in Iowa”
Come, now, matthue. How many frum protestors are there compared to frum Jews who don’t care and prefer to continue to buy Rubashkin products?
It’s a matter of self-defense and survival, isn’t it? I’m sure both Israel and Iran have leveled true enough facts at each other hidden under tons of blather and saber rattling, but do you think either would listen to the other even if they later to themselves noticed it?
If you don’t perceive the other as part and parcel of your own grouping(s), then it is you versus them. It doesn’t matter how true it is. You need not be a drug addict operating with impaired synapses to be in denial over something.
Additionally, if you suddenly decide to do the big mea maxima culpa, and clean house, it is going to still destroy you because despite the things we say, that admitting and cleaning the slate is good and will be accepted and viewed with appreciation, everyone knows that’s nonsense. Your rep is garbage anyhow.
Lose-lose. Either deny and circle the wagons until inevitable overrun or admit and be tarred and feathered.
So the thing to do isn’t clean house after or deny, but not allow the situation to happen in the first place.
For better or worse, there’s no heavenly magic to being a rabbi. Attaining semicha is not different really than being a Catholic priest or an MCSE or ASC. You learn XYZ, repeat it back, and you’re judged as knowing enough. It’s a matter of how much can you swallow and pretend to put up with it? In college, getting through a liberal arts course can be an endurance trial of agreeing with loads of horsehockey from various professors who know only their own POV and care for no other and even admit no other.
What is lacking is personal integrity, which is hard to hold on to. We like to look at others and imagine were we in the same situation we’d not do the same thing, but short of being in that actual situation we just don’t know. We take it on faith that we would be different and good.
What is missing is conscience, and we replace it with religious ritual as if getting to be closer to G-d wasn’t to be better people, but follow this prescription to do it. Do these mitzvot, avoid these prohibitions, daven exactly this way, say these berachot, and presto: you’re a great person.
It’s not that easy. We should encourage the golden rule and empathy as soon as we possibly can in people from early childhood. It might seem like it makes people a little wishy washy, but it’s either that or being so self-assured that they blunder ahead through a life of constantly accidentally hurting other people’s hearts and minds as so many people do, and the weaker and less self-controlled out and out learning to do it for their own amusement, power, what have you.
Would you like someone doing it to you? Why would you do it to them then? That question should always be asked of ourselves all the time. If it was encouraged always across the board, the idea that anything that doesn’t pass review and you can’t justify, you probably should not do it, then a lot of the problems everywhere in life would disappear.
And exactly why is the comparison false? You are categorizing an entire group of people based on some stereotypes, and extrapolation. That’s all racism is.
Why is cheap kike an antisemetic slur if there are some cheap jews in the world?
What’s the difference between saying I don’t trust chareidim or I don’t trust jews or blacks?
And the really stupid thing about it is that you’ve met enough chareidim to know that we’re not a monolith.
Mohammed, Being black is not a totalitarian ideology or a cult. Neither is it a neurosis.
Ultra orthodox dishonesty, be it tax evasion, charity and welfare fraud or financial explotation and hucksterism is an inevitable consequence of an unhealthy ideology and values.
mohammed, let’s face it. When it comes to being an upstanding citizen, it isn’t usually — overall — “the frummer, the better.”
DK
And what do you think of this statement?
let’s face it. When it comes to being an upstanding citizen, it isn’t usually — overall — “the blacker, the better. Would you call it racist?
mohammed,
I think its quite cute when you haredim play the victims. Unfortunately for you, haredism isn’t a race. It’s a mentality and subculture.
Mohammed
And what do you think of this statement?
“lets face it. When it comes to being an upstanding citizen, it isn’t usually - overall - the more Maoist, the better.” Would you call that statement anti-Chinese?
RL
No, I would call it anti communist, at least the version they have in china.
Dk
I thought cute was reserved for babies and dogs.
Who’s playing victim? Of course chareidim are not a race, neither are jews. Or women, gays or Amish. And so? Are you, or are you not assigning characteristics to an entire group of people based on negative stereotypes?
mohammed,
this whole thing came to pass when select haredim do something wrong and the Orthodox segment of the Jewish community fails to censure them properly. That is really all we are talking about.
No, this came to pass when some reform jackass called the whole community dishonest instead of limiting his criticism to the “guilty” parties. See? I actually read your link before commenting.
And btw, wtf do you mean by censure them properly anyway?
Does the orthodox community have to go through a public ritual breast beating for your satisfaction?
Well, in the case of Rubashkin, that means refraining from granting a hecksher to said meat processing plant until these serious problems are fixed, and management changed.
A hechsher is to certify that the food is kosher. It is. It’s not the hechshers department to enforce the law, that’s the job of the US goverment. Apparently, the goverment is doing its job. Since they’re not in continuous violation, one can presume they are conforming with all applicable laws, -until their next fine.
The yekkes pulled their certification.
“…who don’t care and prefer to continue to buy Rubashkin products?”
Do you buy coffee from Nigeria? Do you think those guys get treated better than the Rubashkin staff? If not, than you stop buying your coffee.
It’s a good question.
Would you rather work in the mines of Africa or for Rubashkin?
I asked you a question DK.
Stop drinking your Nigerian coffee, or shut the hell up about Orthodox people being so unethical when they (decreasingly in instance) choose Rubashkin.
This isn’t about me Halfsours. But for the record, would you purchase an antique hand-made rug from Persia in great condition for $50?
If so, you have no business calling yourself a Zionist.
It is about you, DK. You can’t impose standards on others that you won’t hold yourself to under similar circumstances. What Rubashkin did was unethical and illegal. Shoin, fartig. Don’t implicate people who buy the stuff as unethical unless you are willing to impose the same standards upon yourself.
I’ve known you for a long time now, and I never realized how much like a politician you are when it comes to evading questions.
Would I buy a Persian rug for 50 dollars? No less than $50,000. Do I buy clothing that in all likelihood has been made in some hell-hole sweatshop in Southeast Asia? Probably, as do you, as almost everybody else does. I’m not entirely comfortable with it, but I do. That was the essence of my point, and you are trying to twist it into your own.
The slight difference is that people in developing countries work under conditions that usually are legal in their respective states, as horrible as they are. Rubashkin, if I understood it correctly, violated workers’ rights (and possibly immigration laws) of the USA. Whether either situation is more or less ethical than the other is a question everybody will have to decide for themself.
For the sake of shalom bais, I’ll bring you fairtrade coffee next time.
That’s a great standard Sarah.
Instead of focusing on exploitation, let’s focus on law breaking. So they broke some technicalities, big fucking deal. Have you ever jaywalked, smoked pot or driven over the speed limit?
Do you think DK has?
mohammed,
That’s exactly the problem. These guys can’t tell the difference between smoking a joint and brutally exploiting workers. Actually, they think the former is worse.
“brutally” exploiting workers. they offered illegal aliens more money for the same work than they would make at home, and probably better work conditions too. they didn’t force anyone to come and work for them. as far as I know, there can’t be a law obligating you to pay an illegal worker minimum wage for work it’s illegal to do in the first place. the way I see it, two consenting adults made a mutually beneficial contract to work for whatever wage was agreeable to both of them. the only technical problem was it’s illegal to hire them in the first place. and as to that, big fucking deal.
no, mohammed, the situation appears to be much more problematic than that. There appears to have been games played in terms of attaching rents, child labor law violations, dangerous working conditions, etc. Real robber baron antics. This was hardly a numerically larger case of hiring a maid without documents to watch the kids. Stop it.
Many of these ultra-Ortho commenters Don’t Get It. Being women, black, gay, Pennsylvania Dutch, or a Jew for that matter is immutable. You can’t change it. OTOH, you CAN change following ultra-orthodoxy or the Amish religion.
Mo, since you must know, I’ve never smoked pot, jaywalking is not a crime or - unless on the Autobahn - an offence, but I can admit to speeding, well-aware that in case of getting caught, I have to face the consequences. Rubashkin was caught and now has to face the consequences. C’est la vie.
BBN
Being so square can’t be healthy, you know?
Maybe you “Don’t Get It”. Why the capitals? Prejudice and discrimination on the basis of religion is wrong, whether it’s christian, jewish, muslim or mormon. Even if you can change it.
Apparently you agree with Hitler and the zionists that jewishness is a racial characteristic. I believe it’s a religion.
And you can change being gay, or get a transgender operation if you don’t like your gender.
Sarah
I figured you would say something like that and I preempted you.
The consequences are paying a fine, and Rubashkin payed. An unexpected consequence was being hassled by all sorts of hypocritical self righteous assholes, and he’s dealing with that also. So?
la vie est merde.
Mon dieu, Mo!
Sarah,
Thanks for the fair trade coffee offer, but DK likes his workers like his coffee: black and bitter.
DK likes his workers like his coffee: black and bitter.
Haha, that was good.
Wait, you forgot to mention his women, too.
“as far as I know, there can’t be a law obligating you to pay an illegal worker minimum wage for work it’s illegal to do in the first place.”
Actually, anyone working in the U.S. is subject to federal minimum wage and hour laws, including the undocumented.
have you heard this from a lawyer? because it doesn’t make sense.
HalfSours, that was brilliant!
EV, how to reprimand someone like you? “Go, draw an uncircumsized penis!”?
EV,
I know that a sensitive soul such as yourself would ne’er intentionally obscure the difference in color between an African, and the tinted one of a half Middle Easterner; You must seldom leave the confines of your extensive Manhattan property, and therein lay the confusion. Also- I’m not bitter; I’m bubbly.
I left my property tonight!
And wait, you’re not black?
Mohammed wrote
“A hechsher is to certify that the food is kosher.”
Mohammed you are both right and wrong. There is a bigger picture which Haredim would do well to take account of-
Mohammed, you do not understand that Shecitah is extremely controversial within non Jewish society. Non Jews are not that bothered by the fact that the Kosher meat industry is as big a scam as the television evangelical movement praying on superstition and delusional neuroses. If Jews are happy to be victims of their clergy and their agents then who are non Jews to protest. What bothers non Jews is the slaughter of cattle without pre-stunning. They regard such cattle as being victims of a patently cruel and barbaric practice. The denials of cruelty put forward by the advocates of Shecitah are regarded by non Jewish society as being as self interested and as true as the claims by the gambling industry that gambling is just another harmless form of entertainment or the recent claims of the smoking industry that the dangers of smoking are unproven. Notwithstanding those doubts, Shecitah is tolerated in the USA just as gambling and the tobacco industry are tolerated. When you operate in a barely tolerated industry, you need to be very careful in not making enemies. So for example if I wish to operate a casino, it would be wise of me to accept restrictions on the income I might make and to avoid employing anyone who might have underworld connections. So for example I may agree to restrict the number of slot machines, or the maximum stake permitted, or the sale of alcohol so as not to antagonize local community leaders. Likewise I it would be wise of me to scrupulous in paying taxes and wages and complying with health and safety laws. As a casino owner I am in a far more vulnerable political position then say a building contractor who cheats on taxes and exploits workers and my actions should reflect this
That is the trap the Hareidi rabbis have fallen into with the Rubashkins. It should be obvious to Hareidi rabbis that a person who runs a controversial business such as slaughtering animals without pre-stunning has to be of utmost moral and legal probity just as someone who runs a casino. In order to avoid criticism, the rabbis claim to be a supervisory authority interested in Kashrus alone and to be independent of Rubashkin but only a Haredi would fall for such a legal fiction. Rubashkin and the kashrus authorities are tied together and in each others pockets. If anything the Rubashkin can be considered as much an agent of the rabbis as they can be considered his agents! Just look at the clean bill of health just given by those Rabbis to Rubashkin! What are the rabbis scared off! That is what turns peoples stomachs against Hareidim. Their fanaticism is matched by their stupidity and political naivety.
The Hareidim have created a lot of new enemies for Kashrus amongst non Jewish Americans. Mohammed, it may come as a shock to you but in order to survive attacks on animal welfare grounds, kashrus in the USA needs the moral and political support of both Jewish and non Jewish Americans. The Hareidim through supporting Rubashkin have done a lot to lose such support. Unlike the NK, the existence of Kashrus in the USA cannot rely on the Iranians.
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