Jewlicious Reader Lashes Out at Beyond BT
November 2, 2008 Aish, BeyondBT, Jewlicious, Kiruv
I hate to be a baal machlockes, but on a Jewlicious post praising my extraordinary–some might say, superhuman–restraint in the face of Big Aish machinations, a regular Jewlicious reader named Chutzpah has excoriated Beyond BT in scathing terms.
Chutzpah writes,
It has been 20 years since my former chevre from “Beyond Teshuva” and I all started “learning” in Israel and then “continued on” with the JHC.
That means these college-educated and highly-successful people have gone 20 years without having a single independent thought or action. They have not had made love without asking the Rabbi to check their panties first and many of them have not tasted their Mother’s home-cooking in that long.
These people have spent every ounce of their time and energy for 20-plus years trying to raise Frum-From-Birth children and there is no turning back. They have indoctrinated each of their 5-7 children every minute of every day with how corrupt, base and evil the outside world is.
Independent thinking is not a reward for these people, they prefer to bask in their self-righteousness than to actually admit that maybe life is not a frum-contest.
I am showing a lot of self-restraint here…I think I better go sit in Kelsey’s cage for a while.
I don’t agree that “these college-educated and highly-successful people have gone 20 years without having a single independent thought or action.” I would just say it isn’t something they would recommend for everyone.
ck has nothing but nice things to say about the ultra-Orthodox kiruv movements and how (relatively) swell they are. But just as many of his best writers know better (i.e., froylein and TM), so too many of his readers do as well.
Especially the ones who were actually there. Not like ck, an FFB.
ck, like many Modern Orthodox Jews — in fact, I would say MOST Modern Orthodox Jews — is absolutely insensitive to the destructive impulses of the baal teshuvah movement. And ck is hardly an insensitive person.
But when it comes to kiruv, they are pretty much all like that. They are not allies in this important issue, but rather, are sympathizers and collaborators with the black-hatters. It is solely up to those of us from the secular world to rise up and protect our own.
Rak kach.
12 comments
Oh Kelsaleh. The notion of me as an FFB is kinda hilarious.
That having been said, you grossly oversimplify my position. I am not in favor of mindless, thoughtless, slavish adherence to the precepts of an all encompassing way of life. My issue with you Kelsey, is that you do not universally apply your standards. Your criticism of certain elements of the frum community and the kiruv movement tars and feathers the entire community unfairly while those who manifest similar behavior in the secular community get a pass.
You don’t think that there are secular, college educated and otherwise intelligent secular people who don’t have an independent thought? Whose actions and lifestyle choices are dictated by an all encompassing media machine that tells them who they should sleep with, how they should dress, what they should eat, what they should read, how they should vote, what and how much they should consume etc. etc.
Given the choice of which brand of mindless zombies I’d like, I’d much rather have Torah-based mindless zombies than marketing based mindless zombies. And the thing is that the secular type are far more ubiquitous and ultimately far more dangerous. I wouldn’t give you such a hard time if you were at least even handed and fair. But you’re not. You have a grudge against frummies and you apply standards to them that you apply to no one else. I’d take you more seriously if you were a little more even handed…. like me!
I’d much rather have Torah-based mindless zombies than marketing based mindless zombies.
You sound like a fahbrentene frummie with that false dichotomy. Those are the options? No. They are not.
You have a grudge against frummies and you apply standards to them that you apply to no one else.
Right. I never criticize the left. It’s all Tikkun Olam over here, all the time!
Now you have pressed my “Baalas Machlockas” button and I really promised not to fan this flame anymore.
However, I can tell you beyond a shadow of doubt from first- hand experience that the products of right-wing Kiruv machines and Modern Orthodox FFB’s are practicing two completely different religions with different attitudes towards Israel, the secular world, educating their children and just about everything else.
My kids had a hard time telling a Modern Orthodox shul in Riverdale apart from a Reconstructionist shul in Montclair this past Holiday marathon, but they were quick to notice that both of these were a very long way from the “Bal-Tshuva” shuls of Passaic, Monsey and Kew Garden Hills (and, to quote my10 year son, “they smelled a lot better too!”)
I’m one of his best writers? I’m flattered…
As for kiruv, I’m with Mo on that issue. I’ve witnessed more than one person dear to me suffering at the hand of kiruv orgs, and no, those persons were not shady bums on the fringe of civilized society but just plain, educated people that tried to successfully merge religious observance with their secular background and education.
Oh Sarah. And you don’t know anyone whose life has been ruined by the excesses of secular culture? Women with eating disorders and self image problems caused by unrealistic depictions of feminine beauty in popular media, or people with serious substance abuse problems, or folks affected negatively by consumer culture etc. etc.? Not that these things don’t happen in frum culture mind you, but they are not innate to religious Judaism as much as they are a systematic byproduct of secular culture.
I mean look at this. I’m defending frummies?? All I’m asking for is an even handed approach. Simply put – the excesses you accuse some in the frum community of, the standards they violate, can be similarly applied to the secular world and yet… they never are. I mean ever! All I am asking for is a little balance from an otherwise intelligent person.
Becoming religious or leaving it does not add a single point to the IQ of the individual involved. Simplistic, dogmatic, true-believer secular Jews tend to become simplistic, dogmatic, true-believer BTs. Brainwashing? When it comes to a real ability to think independently, most people just don’t have that much brain to wash.
Kelsey–if what you really advocate is the cultivation and encouragement of free an independent thought , and the right of others to swing their arm providing it doesn’t hit anybody in the face, I agree 100%.
ck–Yeah, Kelsey’s got a bug in his bonnet about Aish. They were all over his brain before he even got a chance to learn think for himself. It’s the intellectual equivalent of molestation. And DK is the baal habayit here.
Would it be better if “they all left an became Unitarians”? It’s not even as simple as that. When I was in high school, the Unitarian youth group (LRY) was known for having the best drug connections.
“Die Gedanken sind frei”
ck, my concern is not religious vs secular, but the shady practices that I’ve seen in use by kiruv orgs.
ck, Sarah/froylein’s concern is really the meat of it. It’s the deceptive practices to induce radically negstive life-changing practices and downward social-mobility. It’s a problem. And you don’t seem to recognize that this stuff is quite real and prevalent among the ultra-Orthodox “teshuva revolution,” just as it is among other fundamentalist groups and New Religions. But for Jewish youth, ultra-Orthodox kiruv is much more of a problem than those other religious/spiritual groups. Scientology is a big problem, ck, but it isn’t my problem. Ultra-orthodox kiruv is.
The problems of the secular world do not nullify the problems of the kiruv world. And the secular world we live in is much broader and disparate than the ultra-Orthodox world which is ultimately controlled by a few key players, such as “The Gedolim,” who have no serious relationship or understanding or even empathy for the people they are “helping.”
I agree with C. Siegel that ultra-Orthodox kiruv workers getting to young people before they have had a chance to learn to think for themselves is the intellectual equivalent of molestation. What’s worse is the Yeshiva systems the bal tshuvas then put their kids in, they are absolutely as dogmatic and restrictive as the private elementary schools Unification Church (Moonies) or Scientology members would send their children to.
One man with a long beard and a long black overcoat is just a ludicuous putz. If he can brainwash a large number other putzes in beards and long black coats to do his bidding, he is a “learned rebbe”.
Have you performed your 613 mitzvahs today? If not, you better have a goddamn good reason !
I had a nightmare last night and I am still shaking. I know there must be some deep and hidden meaning behind it and I am hoping that someone out there might be able to help me interpret this dream as Joseph helped the Pharaoh. I dreamt that I was the meat in the sandwich between Tzippi Livni and Sarah Palin, you know what I mean, that I was “Lucky Pierre”. But, in this dream, upon my awakening in the morning, I had a terrible taste in my mouth and found myself between Golda Meir and Madeline Albright. Oy, gottenyu!!
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