Baal Teshuvahs who ask too many questions are troublemakers
November 5, 2008 BeyondBT, Kiruv
Better to cut them off!
Little Frumhouse on the Prairie is troubled that so many go “off the derech.” It’s a real mystery why a BT would ever leave the wonderful world of ultra-Orthodoxy. Why would anyone leave?
Well, one sign of trouble is when some people start asking too many questions. The wrong type of questions.
Little Frumhouse on the Prairie writes on Beyond BT,
Rabbi Maryles feels that when a frum person reaches out to leaders/teachers/community members with questions or statements that can indicate a growing lapse of faith, instead of being taken under wing, leaders/teachers/community members chastise the person or attempt to silence them. A person who asks such questions could be a bad influence on impressionable people within the community. Better to have that “bad apple” go off the derech instead of taking the risk that they might rot the whole bushel. In a way the sacrifice can be seen as pekuach nefesh [saving a soul] – sacrificing the unbelieving rodef [predatory pursuer] for the good of maintaining the believers.
While the frum community officially boasts that, “No one ever died from a question,” the reality is a bit different. The internet was not banned by many right-wing ultra-Orthodox groups because of porn. It was banned because of blogs.
The frummies deride those of us who eventually balked, and found the inner strength to claw our way back to the secular world, with our tail between our legs. They then jeer that we “couldn’t hack it in the frum world.” They act like this was the easy course to follow. In fact, it is a form of very public teshuvah.
What the frum don’t talk about is that they are the ones who could not and cannot “hack” our questions. Even here, they are not seriously addressing them, because they only address those questions and problems that they feel safe acknowledging. Some of the issues are real, such as the issue of poverty. But many may not be broached publicly. The brutality and amputation of an intense kiruv experience is not addressed, nor are the feelings of rage and helplessness as you eventually begin to understand how you were systematically lied to about your own non-haredi traditional Jewish heritage.
We can learn where the Kiruv movement perceives itself to be most vulnerable by those issues that remain unaddressed.
And for just a couple of those questions and problems that are not broached, here are some broad categories not mentioned:
1) The mesorah is dubious, to say the least.
2) For those of us from liberal backgrounds, Jewish and Frum supremacism among the Orthodox becomes increasingly nauseating over time
3) Metzizah b’peh is not condemned outright by any significant sector of Orthodoxy.
4) Too much regulation of daily life. This becomes intrusive over time and feels like rabbinically legislated OCD.
5) The constant push to make less of your life instead of more.
6) Estrangement from friends and family in exchange for the dubious “warmth” of community.
7) Being surrounded by Orthodox Jews—especially FFBs and the flaming BTs – often becomes unbearable for those BTs from secular backgrounds who are or turn moderate.
8.) The artistic culture of the Orthodox is vastly inferior to the secular world. This includes all music, music, music, visual art, fiction, non-fiction (often the most outlandish fiction).
9) The vast sweep of hostility and straw man contempt for the secular world becomes exhausting and alienating over time.
10) The severity of Shabbat and the holidays begin to feel like unnecessary, unwanted, and unremitting speed bumps.
11) Too many of the “rewards” in Judaism are restricted to redemption the “next world.” Far too many.
I could go on and on.
12 comments
I agree, but what can you do? As long as ultra Orthodoxy is seen as the only legitimate spiritual/religious expression of Judaism, and their definitions and interpretations of Torah the only ones held to be correct, then any argument against them by anyone else is destined to fail.
It’s like Larry Flynt trying to defend Hustler by going, “yeah, you’re right, this is all horrid unforgiveable smut, BUT…” Once you stipulate to the other side being correct, argument/game over. There’s nothing further.
As it is, Conservative, Reform, and Reconstructionist et al stipulate to the Torah saying what Orthodoxy says, and that means they’re right, everyone else is wrong, end of discussion.
Therefore, any divergence within the Orthodox world is equally without a chance.
Unless and until a new interpretation of Torah that differs from the Talmudic ones, and makes coherent self-consistent sense comes along, and is widely accepted if only secretly by the most frum, nevermind everyone else, then there won’t be a change.
Metzitza b’peh alone should arouse feelings of disgust in the modern person here in the US given all the molestation cases with rabbis and priests. But really, if the well known homosexuality in Catholic clergy could be overlooked for so long, a minhag like this among a much smaller subsection of society dressed up in a Hebrew name and couched as tradition has even less chance of anyone caring.
So what chance does all the rest have of raising any eyebrows? The various parties have agreed to disagree even while genuflecting to a single shared view of authentic Jewish religiosity.
David,
One would think that given the inordinate amount of time you spend linking to posts on Beyond BT, you might have realized that it is a group blog. Beyond BT, unlike “The Kvetcher”, is not a person. So, Beyond BT, for example, isn’t “troubled” by something, though the author of a post on BBT might be.
(Parenthetically, notice the parentheses, the part that you quote as “troubling” is not even the position of the author of the post, it was Rabbi Maryles’ point, as the quote clearly indicates)
Perhaps I can make the point of BBT being a group blog a little clearer by way of example, so that you can accurately post next time (if that’s a concern of yours)
Here’s how a post might appear on The Kvetcher:
Beyond BT Bashes Chareidi Judaism and Compares Yeshivas to Manson and Jim Jones Cults!
“Beyond BT writes: For some Jews, not only is charedi Judaism unacceptable, but there is reason to believe it has proven damaging to some Jews who have attempted to do so.” (sic) Beyond BT later adds, in the comments to that post, regarding Yeshivas “No one forces anyone physically, no, but there is non-physical pressure to stay in the yeshiva, and non-physical pressure to stay charedi, and consequences for those who listen. Saying that this was their choice does not alleviate these problems. This is, as far as I know, no different than what happens at the Kaballah Centre or Bob Jones University, which I would argue, are closer to non-Jewish parallels (though by no means perfect) than Manson or Jim Jones. ”
Now, most people that read the Kvetcher, yes both of you
, would probably be surprised that Beyond BT “said” such things. Well, that’s because Beyond Teshuvah is a group blog and that was the viewpoint, not of an amorphous blog, but of the person who wrote that particular post and later commented on it. This should be obvious to you, DK, because the person who wrote that post was none other than (insert brass instrument flourish here) The Kvetcher himself, David Kelsey.
Get serious, DK.
David, I changed the attribution to Little Frumhouse on the Pairie, though I had noted later that he was the specific person who wrote it.
While the writer may not agree with the position Rabbi Marles outlines, he does seem to acknowledge that it exists. And he doesn’t — in my humble opinion — really do justice as to why people really leave the frum world .
Additionally, there is a difference between a commenter writing something in the comments section and a site actually publishing something as a post. This was my issue with Cross-Currents publishing that enlightening essay about how Obama has some very many and interesting similarities to Haman.
DK,
I’m not saying that I agree with Little Frumhouse on the Prairie, who, by the way is a she (you sexist!) or not. Point is just because Beyond BT publishes something doesn’t mean that Mark or I or the tens of other posters agree with it. BTW, the first quote I put up was from your post on BBT not from a comment.
Anyway, I don’t expect you to actually read the posts before you cherry pick them.
BTW, the first quote I put up was from your post on BBT not from a comment.
Doh!
Well…like I said, I made an edit at the beginning to address your issue.
Here’s a fun example for you. My Karaite friends in Jerusalem and Elat were quite amused to hear how extinct they were supposed to be, – my then-”mentor” in that phone-Torah learning program “Taught” me that they were no more. She told me that God had cursed the Karaites so much that every time they got close to having a minyan, one dies. Since there are 30,000+ in Jerusalem and another several thousand in Elat (I forget how many), and some tens of thousands still in Lithuania, I believe, not to mention smaller groups scattered all over the world, and I know and correspond with several regularly, I was insistent that my “mentor” was incorrect, and she threw a fit and never talked to me again. That was just one of the things that got me in trouble – I could go on and on. The Orthodox grasp of reality is really, really, umm, let’s say, weak. Even the slightest knowledge of history, science, medicine, comparative religion or philosophy makes them angry at you, because their indoctrination is so devoid of actual truth. Confronting them with real data is the most horrible thing you can do to them. Of course, it never changes their mind – it just makes them hateful and condescending.
Ahavah, I’ve read that the Karaites, after rejecting the Rabbinic oral tradition, then went on to develop something similar. Do you know whether or not this is correct?
Not exactly – they have some interpretations that they have adopted which I have argued are not supported by scripture and are therefore takanot and ma’asim of their own (which arguement didn’t go over very well, as you might imagine). They insist their “interpretations” are the historical way Judaism was practiced from the time of Moshe until the Babylonian Exile (and still practiced that way by the antecedents of their sect even afterward). For example, their rule is that no one under 20 is allowed to get married, period, because a 20 year old called up for military service can get out of it for having been recently married, and their definition of “damsel” they believe is a girl under 20. The “damsel” thing fails on linguistic grounds and examples from scripture, and the under 20 thing fails both on archaeological and historical grounds, as well as scriptural grounds (since it doesn’t say you only get to go home if you just married your FIRST wife – any wife, even #10, will do, and you could be older than 20 for the rule to apply to you, obviously). I had a nasty argument about this with an American Karaite Elder who was/is a professor at their “Karaite University” (which is online, you can take classes through their website or at their building, which is in California). When I had shot down all his arguments he then tried to claim this was just “his” opinion and was not the “official” Karaite teaching – however, it appeared on several pages of the Karaite University website and was listed more than once under their doctrines and teachings. When I pointed that out, he had the webpages changed. Fortunately, I had a feeling he would and copied them before he changed them. (I am evil, you know.) So to answer their question: yes and no. For the most part, their interpretations do jibe with historical evidence and with the written Torah, but there are occasional lapses which I can describe only as their own Karaite Tradition. They would not agree, of course. (Amazing how I manage to make EVERYBODY mad at me.)
“The internet was not banned by many right-wing ultra-Orthodox groups because of porn. It was banned because of blogs.”
Chronologically that cannot be true. The haredi bans on the internet were promulgated well before blogging became even remotely mainstream. At the time the concept of a blog was simply not known, except perhaps in the most cutting edge of the web venture community.
“The frummies deride those of us who eventually balked, and found the inner strength to claw our way back to the secular world, with our tail between our legs.”
Wow, what courage…
Sorry to tell you, but lots of people try things out and then decide that it’s not for them. You’re not the first.
Ahavah:
“For the most part, their interpretations do jibe with historical evidence and with the written Torah, but there are occasional lapses which I can describe only as their own Karaite Tradition. They would not agree, of course.”
Unfortunately, the more traditional among the Qaraites (i.e. most) share, in varying degrees, a collective ego — just like the Orthodox. As we know, God is absent where ego is present.
They hold on to lore and several doctrinal points about their history, some of which were pointed above. I find the adherence to such nonsense rather disappointing.
There’s one consolation for the critics. Qaraites are far more open about discord with and criticism of their non-Scriptural interpretations and customs than the Orthodox.
Ahavah:
“Since there are 30,000+ [Karaites] in Jerusalem and another several thousand in Elat (I forget how many), and some tens of thousands still in Lithuania, I believe, not to mention smaller groups scattered all over the world, and I know and correspond with several regularly,”
Comment:
Eilat has a maybe a few dozens at best whereas Jerusakem boasts a few hundred at most. The figure 30,000 is for the entire Land of Israel! The biggest concentrations of Qaraite Jews exist in Ramle (pretty close to the int’l airport) and the port city Ashdod.
Those in Lithuania practice a convoluted form of Qaraite Judaism and have long detached themselves from the Jewish people and religion (1st half of last century).
The US boasts 1500-2000 Qaraites, France a few hundreds to 1000, Turkey about 80. Other bonafide Qaraite Jewish comiunities exist in Switzerland and the UK.
Ahavah:
“They insist their “interpretations” are the historical way Judaism was practiced from the time of Moshe until the Babylonian Exile (and still practiced that way by the antecedents of their sect even afterward). ”
Comment:
I’m with you on this. I’ve always felt these claims to be dubious nonsense at best.
Ahavah:
“their rule is that no one under 20 is allowed to get married, period, because a 20 year old called up for military service can get out of it for having been recently married, and their definition of “damsel” they believe is a girl under 20. ”
I’ve consulted some Israeli born-Qaraites, including a Hakham (sage/Rabbi), and my findings force me to conclude you pulled this tripe out of your own posterior. It’s plainly false! SHAME ON YOU.
So, your claims about that a nasty argument you had had about this with one teacher at the KJU is a gigantic strawman you manufactured and shot down on your own. Unless and until you furnish objective evidence here for what those webpages on his site had really claimed, your credibility on this matter remains below zero. I seem to recall those webpages claiming with convincing Scriptural support that an Israelite ceases to be a minor and assumes all responsibilities as an adult at age 20 as opposed to age 13 or 12 like Rabbanites have it.
So… unless you want to be seen as someone who maliciously lied on this score, you’d do well to provide reliable and truthful defenses or rebuttal for this comment.
Will we be hearing back from you soon?
Forgot to mention in my previous comment: I’ve been told by a Qaraite Hakham that he knows of more than one case from the past where a Qaraite Jewish girl married at 17 yrs. of age, and went on to note that it’s possible at present, too.
B’Shalom.
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