Comments on: Baal Teshuvahs who ask too many questions are troublemakers

By: QJ

QJ — Sun, 18 Jan 2009 16:55:36 +0000

Forgot to mention in my previous comment: I’ve been told by a Qaraite Hakham that he knows of more than one case from the past where a Qaraite Jewish girl married at 17 yrs. of age, and went on to note that it’s possible at present, too.

B’Shalom.

By: QJ

QJ — Sun, 18 Jan 2009 16:45:04 +0000

Ahavah:
“Since there are 30,000+ [Karaites] in Jerusalem and another several thousand in Elat (I forget how many), and some tens of thousands still in Lithuania, I believe, not to mention smaller groups scattered all over the world, and I know and correspond with several regularly,”

Comment:
Eilat has a maybe a few dozens at best whereas Jerusakem boasts a few hundred at most. The figure 30,000 is for the entire Land of Israel! The biggest concentrations of Qaraite Jews exist in Ramle (pretty close to the int’l airport) and the port city Ashdod.
Those in Lithuania practice a convoluted form of Qaraite Judaism and have long detached themselves from the Jewish people and religion (1st half of last century).
The US boasts 1500-2000 Qaraites, France a few hundreds to 1000, Turkey about 80. Other bonafide Qaraite Jewish comiunities exist in Switzerland and the UK.

Ahavah:
“They insist their “interpretations” are the historical way Judaism was practiced from the time of Moshe until the Babylonian Exile (and still practiced that way by the antecedents of their sect even afterward). ”

Comment:
I’m with you on this. I’ve always felt these claims to be dubious nonsense at best.

Ahavah:
“their rule is that no one under 20 is allowed to get married, period, because a 20 year old called up for military service can get out of it for having been recently married, and their definition of “damsel” they believe is a girl under 20. ”

I’ve consulted some Israeli born-Qaraites, including a Hakham (sage/Rabbi), and my findings force me to conclude you pulled this tripe out of your own posterior. It’s plainly false! SHAME ON YOU.
So, your claims about that a nasty argument you had had about this with one teacher at the KJU is a gigantic strawman you manufactured and shot down on your own. Unless and until you furnish objective evidence here for what those webpages on his site had really claimed, your credibility on this matter remains below zero. I seem to recall those webpages claiming with convincing Scriptural support that an Israelite ceases to be a minor and assumes all responsibilities as an adult at age 20 as opposed to age 13 or 12 like Rabbanites have it.
So… unless you want to be seen as someone who maliciously lied on this score, you’d do well to provide reliable and truthful defenses or rebuttal for this comment.

Will we be hearing back from you soon?

By: QJ

QJ — Sun, 18 Jan 2009 00:49:52 +0000

Ahavah:
“For the most part, their interpretations do jibe with historical evidence and with the written Torah, but there are occasional lapses which I can describe only as their own Karaite Tradition. They would not agree, of course.”

Unfortunately, the more traditional among the Qaraites (i.e. most) share, in varying degrees, a collective ego — just like the Orthodox. As we know, God is absent where ego is present.

They hold on to lore and several doctrinal points about their history, some of which were pointed above. I find the adherence to such nonsense rather disappointing.

There’s one consolation for the critics. Qaraites are far more open about discord with and criticism of their non-Scriptural interpretations and customs than the Orthodox.

By: Eric

Eric — Fri, 14 Nov 2008 06:56:55 +0000

“The internet was not banned by many right-wing ultra-Orthodox groups because of porn. It was banned because of blogs.”

Chronologically that cannot be true. The haredi bans on the internet were promulgated well before blogging became even remotely mainstream. At the time the concept of a blog was simply not known, except perhaps in the most cutting edge of the web venture community.

“The frummies deride those of us who eventually balked, and found the inner strength to claw our way back to the secular world, with our tail between our legs.”

Wow, what courage…

Sorry to tell you, but lots of people try things out and then decide that it’s not for them. You’re not the first.

By: Ahavah

Ahavah — Fri, 07 Nov 2008 01:38:43 +0000

Not exactly – they have some interpretations that they have adopted which I have argued are not supported by scripture and are therefore takanot and ma’asim of their own (which arguement didn’t go over very well, as you might imagine). They insist their “interpretations” are the historical way Judaism was practiced from the time of Moshe until the Babylonian Exile (and still practiced that way by the antecedents of their sect even afterward). For example, their rule is that no one under 20 is allowed to get married, period, because a 20 year old called up for military service can get out of it for having been recently married, and their definition of “damsel” they believe is a girl under 20. The “damsel” thing fails on linguistic grounds and examples from scripture, and the under 20 thing fails both on archaeological and historical grounds, as well as scriptural grounds (since it doesn’t say you only get to go home if you just married your FIRST wife – any wife, even #10, will do, and you could be older than 20 for the rule to apply to you, obviously). I had a nasty argument about this with an American Karaite Elder who was/is a professor at their “Karaite University” (which is online, you can take classes through their website or at their building, which is in California). When I had shot down all his arguments he then tried to claim this was just “his” opinion and was not the “official” Karaite teaching – however, it appeared on several pages of the Karaite University website and was listed more than once under their doctrines and teachings. When I pointed that out, he had the webpages changed. Fortunately, I had a feeling he would and copied them before he changed them. (I am evil, you know.) So to answer their question: yes and no. For the most part, their interpretations do jibe with historical evidence and with the written Torah, but there are occasional lapses which I can describe only as their own Karaite Tradition. They would not agree, of course. (Amazing how I manage to make EVERYBODY mad at me.)

By: Jeff Eyges

Jeff Eyges — Thu, 06 Nov 2008 12:40:25 +0000

Ahavah, I’ve read that the Karaites, after rejecting the Rabbinic oral tradition, then went on to develop something similar. Do you know whether or not this is correct?

By: Ahavah

Ahavah — Thu, 06 Nov 2008 01:26:26 +0000

Here’s a fun example for you. My Karaite friends in Jerusalem and Elat were quite amused to hear how extinct they were supposed to be, – my then-”mentor” in that phone-Torah learning program “Taught” me that they were no more. She told me that God had cursed the Karaites so much that every time they got close to having a minyan, one dies. Since there are 30,000+ in Jerusalem and another several thousand in Elat (I forget how many), and some tens of thousands still in Lithuania, I believe, not to mention smaller groups scattered all over the world, and I know and correspond with several regularly, I was insistent that my “mentor” was incorrect, and she threw a fit and never talked to me again. That was just one of the things that got me in trouble – I could go on and on. The Orthodox grasp of reality is really, really, umm, let’s say, weak. Even the slightest knowledge of history, science, medicine, comparative religion or philosophy makes them angry at you, because their indoctrination is so devoid of actual truth. Confronting them with real data is the most horrible thing you can do to them. Of course, it never changes their mind – it just makes them hateful and condescending.

By: DK

DK — Wed, 05 Nov 2008 23:53:10 +0000

BTW, the first quote I put up was from your post on BBT not from a comment.

Doh!

Well…like I said, I made an edit at the beginning to address your issue.

By: David Linn

David Linn — Wed, 05 Nov 2008 23:31:22 +0000

DK,

I’m not saying that I agree with Little Frumhouse on the Prairie, who, by the way is a she (you sexist!) or not. Point is just because Beyond BT publishes something doesn’t mean that Mark or I or the tens of other posters agree with it. BTW, the first quote I put up was from your post on BBT not from a comment.

Anyway, I don’t expect you to actually read the posts before you cherry pick them.

By: DK

DK — Wed, 05 Nov 2008 22:33:33 +0000

David, I changed the attribution to Little Frumhouse on the Pairie, though I had noted later that he was the specific person who wrote it.

While the writer may not agree with the position Rabbi Marles outlines, he does seem to acknowledge that it exists. And he doesn’t — in my humble opinion — really do justice as to why people really leave the frum world .

Additionally, there is a difference between a commenter writing something in the comments section and a site actually publishing something as a post. This was my issue with Cross-Currents publishing that enlightening essay about how Obama has some very many and interesting similarities to Haman.