Right. Which is what makes advocating such a thing, or at least indicating that a tradition exists for doing such a thing intentetionally, radical. The subtext of 7fatcow is that we, the biggest and most devoted torah scholars we know, don’t quite trust the Torah that we were given, and are fishing for, if not alternate meanings and conclusions, new or other counsel.

I like Zoroyid’s “martyr” suggestion. Because there is a rich rabbinic tradition of That. Classic biblical examples (if that’s a model for anything) include King Saul throwing himself on the sword to avoid capture, and of course, Masada. Not exactly reacting to depression, but hey: maybe something is different in the world now, that beggars a different reaction–

I hear you and hold by you, DK, better to leave Judaism completely than become forced to be dishonest and wicked (i.e. “charedi” in some usages of the term)… I wonder if a similar principle applies with being alive at all. When I hear Mohammed rage about how Those People should Die/kill themselves/whatever, I hear him talking about the problem of The World, and his sense of futility at trying to encourage anything better out of anyone. Is that irresponsible, or just expressive of an honest sense of futility with a broken world?

But the early editorial decision to foster and permit all kinds of potentially insulting, destructive, or nihilistic ideas in there with the romantic poetry, wistful judeo-nostalgia, and profound observations and public surrenders of dignity in the name of Expression! is still something i’m proud of, even if the secret of how to keep the meaning in the madness without degrading into distracting personal attacks never quite surfaced; our confidence in back talk and disinterested silence, along with the tide of new posts, as tools for transending the wounds bringing us to whatever 7FC is expressing now.

Responsible expression is for the marketplace, not for the laboratory, and it behooves us to recognize a difference. Who goes to 7FC expecting halacha to be poskuned, or a warm loving arm to hold them in this confusing world? Only the mad. Because 7 fat cow is born out of the tension of feeling so hurt/dissapointed/angry/annoyed with Orthodox Judaism while still appreciating something good in the way and the world, and being very openly and divergently certain of the truism that something is awry, but who can isolate what? Whoever can will try, and honesty may be the only sunlight that lets the hearts of the Jews engage The Problem, that we have been lied to by someone in positions of our communal trust about what’s good and what’s bad, and only by talking about it, often in nessesarily open and polemic terms, will we get any ideas and clarities exposed enough to either accept, reject, or edit? 7 Fat Cow is not written for by people in positions of authority or much influence, l’hefech, it’s written by the people who furiously cast aside aspirations of Jewish Power in their respective communities in the hopes of working SOMETHING out– so i’m not so scared for a concious suicide advocasy piece doing more than helping us see what other people think, hope consider or counsel. I still miss the Vanguard Neo-nazis who would post, and still feel as if the ideas on 7FC are so much less the problem than the lack of a good language for engaging them. So far, witty ridicule is the best I’ve seen the cattle come up with.

I don’t know if you saw that 7fatcow has taken to quoting a passage from your post as a blurb on the front page, top right.

Partly true. Most of the descendants of the early Reform movement are not Jewish.

Now…how do you think that happened?

If you want to see what happened, look in the mirror.

You great grand children will, according to the statistics, not be Jewish. I don’t know if you find something wrong with that.

It isn’t everything to me, and it clearly isn’t everything to most secular Jews, or we would be living quite differently, wouldn’t we?

It’s” simple to remember”: Better out than haredi.