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	<title>Comments on: We are not all Chabadniks&#8230;</title>
	<atom:link href="http://kvetcher.net/2008/12/1988/we-are-not-all-chabaniks/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://kvetcher.net/2008/12/1988/we-are-not-all-chabaniks/</link>
	<description>kvetch \KVECH\, intransitive verb: To complain habitually. noun: 1. A complaint 2. A habitual complainer.</description>
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		<title>By: DK</title>
		<link>http://kvetcher.net/2008/12/1988/we-are-not-all-chabaniks/comment-page-1/#comment-8659</link>
		<dc:creator>DK</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Dec 2008 19:46:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://kvetcher.net/?p=1988#comment-8659</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;What happened to genetic testing before marriage?&lt;/i&gt;

Not all the chassidim have the same respect for science as the rest of us.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>What happened to genetic testing before marriage?</i></p>
<p>Not all the chassidim have the same respect for science as the rest of us.</p>
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		<title>By: JKL</title>
		<link>http://kvetcher.net/2008/12/1988/we-are-not-all-chabaniks/comment-page-1/#comment-8658</link>
		<dc:creator>JKL</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Dec 2008 18:52:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://kvetcher.net/?p=1988#comment-8658</guid>
		<description>Sandra Samuel is a hero, and I hope they give her a house in Israel and a fleet of Chassidic servants to wait on her for the rest of her life as a reward for what she did.

An interesting side note--baby Moshe&#039;s parents (may they rest in peace) had two children with Tay Sachs disease (one of whom is already dead). What happened to genetic testing before marriage?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sandra Samuel is a hero, and I hope they give her a house in Israel and a fleet of Chassidic servants to wait on her for the rest of her life as a reward for what she did.</p>
<p>An interesting side note&#8211;baby Moshe&#8217;s parents (may they rest in peace) had two children with Tay Sachs disease (one of whom is already dead). What happened to genetic testing before marriage?</p>
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		<title>By: C. Siegel</title>
		<link>http://kvetcher.net/2008/12/1988/we-are-not-all-chabaniks/comment-page-1/#comment-8653</link>
		<dc:creator>C. Siegel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Dec 2008 06:49:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://kvetcher.net/?p=1988#comment-8653</guid>
		<description>Exactly.  You use &quot;dan l-chaf zchut&quot; in investigating, say, child abuse, and we&#039;ve all seen what you get.  The key for medical personnel detecting abuse is to note a checklist of certain signs, certain types of injuries, and see if the story fits the injury.  Repeated hospitalizations for trauma, a history of unreported fractures on a bone scan, etc. There&#039;s also a tendency for the child to be either excessively frightened of strangers or too clingy to strangers. You can tell a lot about the parent-child relationship by watching them together for a few hours.

None of these signs is in itself PROOF of abuse, but they do call for further investigation.  Usually it&#039;s nothing, but any injury that meets these criteria merits a closer look.  It doesn&#039;t matter who the parents are, how nice they seem, or how much money they make.  Or how &quot;frum&quot; they are.

For Valis&#039;s peer group, his identity was in itself proof of innocence, which is nonsense.  That&#039;s what I meant when I said that haredim are often dangerously naive.  They also lack technical skills, which include such fields as criminology and pathology, to name but a few.  They willfully and consciously render themselves unfit for group autonomy.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Exactly.  You use &#8220;dan l-chaf zchut&#8221; in investigating, say, child abuse, and we&#8217;ve all seen what you get.  The key for medical personnel detecting abuse is to note a checklist of certain signs, certain types of injuries, and see if the story fits the injury.  Repeated hospitalizations for trauma, a history of unreported fractures on a bone scan, etc. There&#8217;s also a tendency for the child to be either excessively frightened of strangers or too clingy to strangers. You can tell a lot about the parent-child relationship by watching them together for a few hours.</p>
<p>None of these signs is in itself PROOF of abuse, but they do call for further investigation.  Usually it&#8217;s nothing, but any injury that meets these criteria merits a closer look.  It doesn&#8217;t matter who the parents are, how nice they seem, or how much money they make.  Or how &#8220;frum&#8221; they are.</p>
<p>For Valis&#8217;s peer group, his identity was in itself proof of innocence, which is nonsense.  That&#8217;s what I meant when I said that haredim are often dangerously naive.  They also lack technical skills, which include such fields as criminology and pathology, to name but a few.  They willfully and consciously render themselves unfit for group autonomy.</p>
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		<title>By: DK</title>
		<link>http://kvetcher.net/2008/12/1988/we-are-not-all-chabaniks/comment-page-1/#comment-8651</link>
		<dc:creator>DK</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Dec 2008 05:11:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://kvetcher.net/?p=1988#comment-8651</guid>
		<description>“Dan l-chaf zchut” is only mandated when it is 50/50. The frummies use it as a tool to excuse any crime of a frummie in the face of secular law/outrage.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>“Dan l-chaf zchut” is only mandated when it is 50/50. The frummies use it as a tool to excuse any crime of a frummie in the face of secular law/outrage.</p>
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		<title>By: C. Siegel</title>
		<link>http://kvetcher.net/2008/12/1988/we-are-not-all-chabaniks/comment-page-1/#comment-8649</link>
		<dc:creator>C. Siegel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Dec 2008 03:22:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://kvetcher.net/?p=1988#comment-8649</guid>
		<description>Jeff--So slap &#039;em down.  You break the law, you disturb public order, we treat you like everybody else who behaves that way. (Except perhaps the Prime Minister, but then, his crimes were not disorderly.)  The Israeli police and government have been far too lax in demanding that disorderly Haredi individuals be caught, called to order, and punished.

Of course deviance has always existed, in every culture, including the Haredim.  Whether they are uniquely &quot; brought up in environments of hostility and rage&quot;, I don&#039;t know.  There&#039;s a wide range here, the common theme being tolerance of deviant behavior among &quot;one of us&quot;.  &quot;Dan l-chaf zchut&quot; is a noble principle for personal morality, but it&#039;s a lousy tool for law enforcement.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jeff&#8211;So slap &#8216;em down.  You break the law, you disturb public order, we treat you like everybody else who behaves that way. (Except perhaps the Prime Minister, but then, his crimes were not disorderly.)  The Israeli police and government have been far too lax in demanding that disorderly Haredi individuals be caught, called to order, and punished.</p>
<p>Of course deviance has always existed, in every culture, including the Haredim.  Whether they are uniquely &#8221; brought up in environments of hostility and rage&#8221;, I don&#8217;t know.  There&#8217;s a wide range here, the common theme being tolerance of deviant behavior among &#8220;one of us&#8221;.  &#8220;Dan l-chaf zchut&#8221; is a noble principle for personal morality, but it&#8217;s a lousy tool for law enforcement.</p>
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		<title>By: Jeff Eyges</title>
		<link>http://kvetcher.net/2008/12/1988/we-are-not-all-chabaniks/comment-page-1/#comment-8639</link>
		<dc:creator>Jeff Eyges</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Dec 2008 22:49:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://kvetcher.net/?p=1988#comment-8639</guid>
		<description>My point in posing the question is that it&#039;s already happening in these places. A girl gets acid thrown on her clothing. A woman gets beaten up on a bus.

Despite what my nephew tells me about the utopian nature of frum households, I&#039;m sure that domestic abuse has always occurred. The significant thing is that it used to take place privately. Now, their brazenness and sense of complete rightness are such that they aren&#039;t ashamed to do it publicly. The message that&#039;s been communicated to them from birth is that any action is acceptable if taken to protect their way of life. They&#039;ve been brought up in environments of hostility and rage; everyone and everything outside of their community is the enemy.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My point in posing the question is that it&#8217;s already happening in these places. A girl gets acid thrown on her clothing. A woman gets beaten up on a bus.</p>
<p>Despite what my nephew tells me about the utopian nature of frum households, I&#8217;m sure that domestic abuse has always occurred. The significant thing is that it used to take place privately. Now, their brazenness and sense of complete rightness are such that they aren&#8217;t ashamed to do it publicly. The message that&#8217;s been communicated to them from birth is that any action is acceptable if taken to protect their way of life. They&#8217;ve been brought up in environments of hostility and rage; everyone and everything outside of their community is the enemy.</p>
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		<title>By: HalfSours</title>
		<link>http://kvetcher.net/2008/12/1988/we-are-not-all-chabaniks/comment-page-1/#comment-8607</link>
		<dc:creator>HalfSours</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Dec 2008 15:50:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://kvetcher.net/?p=1988#comment-8607</guid>
		<description>Does Israel? Does America? Maybe we should. Maybe you should need a license to buy this sort of thing. Some people would still get their hands on it if they were so inclined. There needs to be another solution. Proper consequences are necessary. Also, surreptitious brainwashing of these extremists while they&#039;re young would help. Maybe bribe the caliphates into telling them that if they pull this kind of shit there will be 72 amorous male virgins the size of football players waiting to meet them in the afterlife.

There needs to be re-education. That&#039;s the key to quelling most of the extremism we face today. I think sending some key people stacks of bills in brown paper bags would help to replace some of the textbooks in East Jerusalem, and even the rhetoric of some of these imams.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Does Israel? Does America? Maybe we should. Maybe you should need a license to buy this sort of thing. Some people would still get their hands on it if they were so inclined. There needs to be another solution. Proper consequences are necessary. Also, surreptitious brainwashing of these extremists while they&#8217;re young would help. Maybe bribe the caliphates into telling them that if they pull this kind of shit there will be 72 amorous male virgins the size of football players waiting to meet them in the afterlife.</p>
<p>There needs to be re-education. That&#8217;s the key to quelling most of the extremism we face today. I think sending some key people stacks of bills in brown paper bags would help to replace some of the textbooks in East Jerusalem, and even the rhetoric of some of these imams.</p>
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		<title>By: DK</title>
		<link>http://kvetcher.net/2008/12/1988/we-are-not-all-chabaniks/comment-page-1/#comment-8605</link>
		<dc:creator>DK</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Dec 2008 15:33:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://kvetcher.net/?p=1988#comment-8605</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;How, logistically, legally, and morally can we stop this from happening in Ramat Bet Shemesh or B’nei Brak??&lt;/i&gt;

I am not sure. But not selling sulfuric acid at the hardware store is apparently an important aspect of it. Pakistan does not ban any of these chemicals. They don&#039;t care.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>How, logistically, legally, and morally can we stop this from happening in Ramat Bet Shemesh or B’nei Brak??</i></p>
<p>I am not sure. But not selling sulfuric acid at the hardware store is apparently an important aspect of it. Pakistan does not ban any of these chemicals. They don&#8217;t care.</p>
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		<title>By: HalfSours</title>
		<link>http://kvetcher.net/2008/12/1988/we-are-not-all-chabaniks/comment-page-1/#comment-8604</link>
		<dc:creator>HalfSours</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Dec 2008 15:30:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://kvetcher.net/?p=1988#comment-8604</guid>
		<description>!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Awful, awful, awful. DK thank you for bringing this to our attention. 

I have a question for everyone: How, logistically, legally, and morally can we stop this from happening in Ramat Bet Shemesh or B’nei Brak??</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!</p>
<p>Awful, awful, awful. DK thank you for bringing this to our attention. </p>
<p>I have a question for everyone: How, logistically, legally, and morally can we stop this from happening in Ramat Bet Shemesh or B’nei Brak??</p>
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		<title>By: C. Siegel</title>
		<link>http://kvetcher.net/2008/12/1988/we-are-not-all-chabaniks/comment-page-1/#comment-8603</link>
		<dc:creator>C. Siegel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Dec 2008 14:17:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://kvetcher.net/?p=1988#comment-8603</guid>
		<description>Classy move, DK.  Thanks for showing some REAL cojones.

  Jeff--as long as we are the ones willing to do the work of law enforcement and defence, no, nothing like this is going to happen in Ramat Bet Shemesh or Bnai Brak.  The  correct term for petty twitchy bullies like that is &quot;chickenshit&quot;.

Again, the Haredim want to run their own autonomous domain, but they don&#039;t have the necessary technical skills and they&#039;re ridiculously naive, besides which, they&#039;re mostly broke.

Work hard, show up, take responsibility, stop bitching.  You may not triumph, but for sure, all else is vanity.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Classy move, DK.  Thanks for showing some REAL cojones.</p>
<p>  Jeff&#8211;as long as we are the ones willing to do the work of law enforcement and defence, no, nothing like this is going to happen in Ramat Bet Shemesh or Bnai Brak.  The  correct term for petty twitchy bullies like that is &#8220;chickenshit&#8221;.</p>
<p>Again, the Haredim want to run their own autonomous domain, but they don&#8217;t have the necessary technical skills and they&#8217;re ridiculously naive, besides which, they&#8217;re mostly broke.</p>
<p>Work hard, show up, take responsibility, stop bitching.  You may not triumph, but for sure, all else is vanity.</p>
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