Charedim Beat Modern Orthodox Again in Beit Shemesh
December 15, 2008 Haredim, Israel, Modern Orthodox
Once a neighborhood goes black, it never goes back!
Failed Messiah reports,
1)Last Friday night some boys and girls were sitting together on the steps from Gad to Herzog and were confronted by some gold garbed hasidim. It was all verbal and related to “we don’t do this in our neighborhood.” But, of course, what is now verbal can quickly escalate to more as you will see in the next item.
2)This past Friday night things went to a much worse level. Three properly dressed girls were walking from Sheinfeld to RBS at around 9:30p.m. They were not making any kind of noise or drawing attention to themselves. After they past the bridge and began making their way up the hill they were confronted by many men – it began at like 20 and swelled to close to 50. The men were yelling that they should get out of their neighborhood. Two managed to run away but one was caught. They grabbed her, threw her to the ground, and kicked and beat her. A boy from our neighborhood was walking on the other side of the street and ran over to try to help. They beat him as well and he was told that if they saw him there again they “would kill him.” Thank G-d, neither had to be hospitalized despite their bruises and scratches and thank G-d a chareidi family in the neighborhood called for them to run to them for shelter which they did.
69 comments
Do they serve glatt kosher at prisons?
Isn’t there an Israeli equivalent of the National Guard? Why isn’t the government sending them (or the Army) in there? Are they that afraid of the Chareidi politicians?
I’m really beginning to think a boycott on the part of the world Jewish community is in order.
You know, I say it again – you really have ruined my relationship with MO rabbi and his wife. Every time you or Shmarya tells one of these damn stories, I become furious with them for willfully blinding themselves.
It all starts with everyone in Judaism conceding the archetype of legitimacy and piousness and spirituality in Judaism to the Uber Orthodox. Even the Reconstructionist do. It’s like demon possession and hauntings with Christians. No matter how far afield the congregation, they sooner or later call for a Catholic priest. If you want something done authentically and legitimately Jewish, the most OTD Reform person automatically has the image of a black suit and hat old man in their head.
As long as that remains, AND that Israel’s entire claim to existence is the idea that G-d granted the land to their ancestors, yeah, the charedi population will continue to grow in power and these incidents will happen. The secular/Zionist side will get power more to themselves again when the claim moves away from history of having once held the land to “what have you done lately” which is to say, who has done more with the land, that might change a little (clearly, Israelis have developed it well, before that it was the hind end of the Ottoman Empire and every other caliphate back to the first Muslim conquest of the area and nothing more so advantage: Israelis).
But until the rest of Judaism stops uncritically genuflecting to men in black suits and hats reflexively, they are the top of the entire Jewish food chain. I love chasidism and a lot of other stuff, but I’m not blind to your blog, and Failed Messiah and so on. There’s some serious internal conflicts that happen largely because one side capitulates before the first argument.
I think people dismissed it before because they were unaware of the growing problem of Chariedi violence. Now that it is clear that it is becoming an institutional problem, more people will begin to pay attention to people like DK and Shmarya. That is by the way , entirely because of DK and Shmarya. Publications like Haaretz have a very rough touch when it comes to these issues. They are comprised of the Tel Aviv crowd that presumes to understand the Chareidi mentality, when in fact they don’t know Jack. DK and Shmarya have upped Haaretz.
I don’t get why the MOs there band together and fight those charedi assholes. My parents live in a similarly “rough” neighborhood and when some fucking chasiddish shmucks started calling my sisters names, we took the fight to them. I almost ripped a kids head off with his stinkin payos.
My father also rolled up to one guy’s house, knocked on the door and when the shmuck answered , belted him one in the face.
Jacob–because as soon as they do, they will be branded violent vigilantes and, unlike the charedim, they will be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law.
On the other hand, Zionist Israeli youth are in much better physical shape than the haredim. In anything resembling a fair fight, I would put my money on the kids in cargo pants and long skirts, not the geeky pale inbred ones in black and white.
suitepotato has a point. Jews in general, and the MO in particular, are always looking back over their collective shoulder to the Chareidim. The MO communicate this subliminally to their kids, who then become easy prey for the kiruv organizations – especially when funneled there by NCSY.
It’s amazing the way you uncritically accept one side of a story whenever it fits your prejudices. I wonder what kind of bullshit you would be putting out if you were prejudiced *for* rubashkin.
It’s amazing the way you uncritically accept one side of a story whenever it fits your prejudices.
Why is that one never hears of innocent people being attacked by the Modern Orthodox? Or frei Jews, for that matter? No one has ever come across a report of a Chareidi girl being accosted and beaten up by a bunch of accountants.
Mo,
Check out your sources, and fill us in on another credible version of the story.
Jeff
you sound exactly like someone on Stormfront talking about African Americans.
“Or frei Jews, for that matter?” If you include Israelis, you have jail cells full of them. American papers don’t identify ethnicity which makes it harder to find that sort of stuff online.
There’s a guy commenting at Failed Messiah who’s really making some sense:
* This is classic territory-based sexual harassment. Men use sexual behavior or physical force to keep women out of areas that are supposed to be exclusively male.
* Since the Haredi have some seriously pathological primitive taboos about sex they use violence instead of sexual acts.
* Performing these acts gives a sense of community, reinforces the sense of specialness, provides an outlet for aggression and gives status within the group.
* The territory between gender-based violence, sexualized violence, sublimated sexuality and violent sex is murky. It is easy to slip from one to the other.
And here’s what you have to do about it.
* You can not give in. Meeting a rapist, a gender-based harasser or any other bully part way reinforces the behavior. Special Haredi neighborhood gender-segregated buses become universal gender-segregated buses. Attacking women in tank tops and jeans becomes attacking all women who don’t adhere to Haredi standards of dress.
* If you back down, then the next fight is over half of what is left. This will continue until the bully has everything
* You must convince the bully or criminal that if he continues there will be consequences and that the cost is greater than whatever he hopes to get from the behavior.
* The less committed the attacker is to his course of action or the earlier it is stopped the easier it is to deter him.
* Once there is a committed deadly force attack the only real options are to get help, flee, confuse the issue enough to break the criminals’ script or be prepared to use deadly force to stop the attack.
I don’t care how many fucking pages of Gemara these pious pole-smokers have memorized. Tactically they are an immediate threat of death or horrible injury to innocent people. Under every legal tradition in the civilized world the defender is justified in using overwhelming force to stop the attack.
This is no different than the Deacons taking up shotguns and rifles against the Klan or Warsaw Ghetto Jews shooting back at the NAZ.
… These people are mentally unbalanced violent religious fanatics. They got away with yelling so they went to spitting. They got away with spitting so they graduated to rocks (which are deadly weapons). Nobody stopped them from throwing rocks, so they’ve moved to dragging down little girls and stomping them. If they aren’t stopped and stopped hard they will start mutilating and killing women. At that point the whole worthless fucking lot of delusional navel-gazers will have to be put down like mad dogs. That’s just how it goes. I’d prefer to save the lives of Jews even if they’re pathetic excuses for human beings. So best to stop them now.
… Thank G-d that isn’t Judaism. It’s the same sort of evil practiced by the Cossacks and the SS. No decent Jew would defend it or tolerate anyone who took part. And that makes you, sir, just about the most worthless excuse for a Yid. And that includes the Julius Rosenberg and Hitler’s pets who sold out their fellow Jews for money.
I liked your suggestion too, DK.
Wow. Very insightful comment there above. I just don’t get this part:
“I’d prefer to save the lives of Jews even if they’re pathetic excuses for human beings. ”
What’s the deal? Who is this guy?
Mo,
Let’s be clear on something: How do you feel about hareidi men attack girls who are not dressed to the Hareidi standards of Tzniut?
I just don’t get this part:
“I’d prefer to save the lives of Jews even if they’re pathetic excuses for human beings. ”
He’s saying if this behavior isn’t stopped soon, the response on the part of the government or the community is going to have to become increasingly harsh: “If they aren’t stopped and stopped hard they will start mutilating and killing women. At that point the whole worthless fucking lot of delusional navel-gazers will have to be put down like mad dogs.” He wants to stop it before it gets to that point.
He has a website: http://toadabode.blogspot.com/
Mo,
At this point, hearing that a Modern Orthodox girl was beaten by haredim is kind of like hearing that an Asian person was beaten by a gang of under-class black thugs from the projects. Your first reaction is simply not to ask, “Well, what’s their side of the story?”
If there is another side of the story, I’m all ears. What exactly did these three shtetl girls do to threaten these poor, vulnerable chassidim? But as for crying “racism,” well, I’m just not all that sensitive like that. I’m a bad person, Mo. I think crime and abuse are often not 100% balanced according to race or sect.
“This is classic territory-based sexual harassment. Men use sexual behavior or physical force to keep women out of areas that are supposed to be exclusively male.”
I went to Mount Meron on Lag B’Pmer one year. I was seeking out Bar Yochai’s actual tomb — surprisingly difficult considering it’s the only attraction on the whole site. I was just walking along when this Satmar-looking guy (he had those coke-bottle glasses) accosted me, screaming “Assur l’nashim” (forbidden to women). At first it didn’t register that he was screaming at me, since I was just walking along minding my own business. Then he ran right up to me and started pointing his finger towards the ground, screaming in my face “assur l’nashim”. Then I took in that there were hundreds of them, all staring at me. They had just decided to up and commandeer that one area of the mountain — which was the way that led to the kever, by the way. I apologized, because I didn’t know what he and his circle-jerk team were capable of, and backed away.
I’ve seen 16 year old tourist girls, who were wearing skirts and T-shirts get eggs thrown at them when they just wondered into the wrong part of town.
I was once doused with techina sauce by a group of older girls in Monsey when I went into a pizza place. I was 10 years old.
To be clear — I’ve only ever been physically accosted by Arabs in the holy land.
Gold garbed Chasidim are usually of the Yerushalmi sect, right?
Mohammed. Violent misogyny is inevitable consequence of the Haredi primitiveness and therefore reports of violence against women should always be regarded as credible.
This “male chauvinist” misogynist attitude derived from archaic, deep-seated unconscious fears of women originating in the earliest stages of human development. People hate what they fear. Men attributed all manner of evil to women because then are afraid of them. As infants, men had feared their mothers’ seemingly malevolence, their intrusiveness and their capacity to inflict all consuming hurt, pain and harm. Men fear their mother’s menstrual blood, their mother’s wish to devour them, to castrate them and to kill them. These archaic infantile fears persist within adults (especially strongly amongst primitive cultures such as Hareidi culture). Women thus become objects of both men’s fear and its resultant hatred and discrimination against the feared object.
Hareidi feelings about women can be gauged from the misogynist fantasies of their folk religion, magic and superstition.
Female sexuality is considered dangerous to men who are afraid of the lust they excite in them. Women are believed to attract all manner of evil: the Angel of Death, Satan, the spirits of uncleanliness and the demons. They are possessed by Dybbuk. Women sit in separate section of synagogue and walk separately from men in funeral processions. They are considered impure unclean and dangerous
Joshua Trachtenberg wrote
“The ancient taboo against menstruous women persisted throughout the Middle Ages. Great pains were taken to avoid even the slightest contact, even between man and wife. This policy was carried to such extremes that the rabbis found it necessary to scold “those who throw the key or coins into their wives hand”. Yet it is not to be wondered that such inordinate measures were adopted for the whole tradition lore of Judaism serves to emphasis and enhance the taboo threatening those who broke it with the direst consequences both here and in the hereafter and for themselves and their children. The talmud contains a charm against snakebite which illustrates the abhorrence with which the woman in menses was regarded: when a woman meets a snake in the road it is enough for her to announce “I am menstruating” for the reptile to glide hastily away! There is even a theory that the very atmosphere is polluted by the glance of a menstruating woman; a theory that may be tested by a “true experiment”. “If a woman at the commencement of her period stares fixedly into a bright metal mirrors she will behold in it a drop of blood, for the demon that is within her glance creates an evil influence in the air which adheres to the mirror; verily she is like the viper that kills with its glance”. To have sexual relations with such a woman, is not just a mortal sin, but jeopardizes ones health and sanity”
The reason that hareidim do not shake hands with women has nothing to do with avoiding becoming ‘sexually desensitized’ as recently suggested by a rabbi. It has everything to do with their fear and disgust of women. If they could, they would have thrown sulphuric ‘Hasid’ in Halfsour’s face when she dared to ‘pollute’ Mount Meron.
Israeli society (as well as US Society) has failed in its responsibility to ‘de-primitivize’ its Hareidi population by intervening in the indoctrination of their children. You can no more expect this hatred of women to just disappear amongst primitive Jews than amongst primitive Muslims. It has long been the Jewish custom to avoid dealing with their ‘psychological cases’ by sending their idiot children to the Holy Land (as if Israel does not have enough problems) and indeed Meah Shearim was founded as a village of village idiots. Mohammed, did you not spend some years there?
“Meah Shearim was founded as a village of village idiots.”
Can you explain?
They had just decided to up and commandeer that one area of the mountain
Nuran is right – it’s territorial behavior. They’re like wild primates. Heilige yidden. Please.
I was once doused with techina sauce by a group of older girls in Monsey when I went into a pizza place.
Because you weren’t dressed tzniusdik enough, or they were just being obnoxious?
I’ve asked frum nephew, repeatedly, “When young men throw rocks at passersby on Shabbat, where are their parents?” I never have received an answer.
This deteriorating situation will never be solved by the Hareidi communities themselves. Those who disapprove are too frightened to say anything – recall what happened to that fellow last year who tried to stand up to them – and they won’t ask the authorities to intervene, due to the taboo about informing on another yid.
What is needed is a serious show of force on the part of the government – and, unfortunately, it’s probably going to take an enormous outcry on the part of world Jewry to make that happen.
“Because you weren’t dressed tzniusdik enough, or they were just being obnoxious?”
I was wearing shorts. Again, I was 10 years old. I in now way resembled a woman yet, and I guess my MO dad, who was with me, was under the impression that I, being a shapeless little tadpole at that time, would not offend. If I remember correctly an older woman was standing right by them. She tried to play it off like it was an accident, but it wasn’t an accident. They wanted me to leave the pizza place because I was making the men folk uncomfortable. At age 10.
“where are their parents?”
Their dads are inside lamenting all the pritzas and schkutzim who defile their neighborhoods, and the moms are busy preparing kugel for their good boys outside. That is, if it it’s a weekend. If it’s a weekday the dad is at kollel lamenting all the pritzas and schkutzim who defile their neighborhoods, and the moms are busy at work trying to feed 12 kinds and support a husband in kollel.
Geeze, sorry about my English skills today. All this Hareidi talk has thrown me off.
I know. It’s like a contagion.
The reason that hareidim do not shake hands with women has nothing to do with avoiding becoming ‘sexually desensitized’ as recently suggested by a rabbi. It has everything to do with their fear and disgust of women.
I’m sure this is true. I never had any patience for their rationalizations of why women can’t do this or that – “because they’re on a ‘higher plane’ ”. Utter nonsense. It’s misogyny. End of story.
Israeli society (as well as US Society) has failed in its responsibility to ‘de-primitivize’ its Hareidi population by intervening in the indoctrination of their children.
I would LOVE to see societal intervention – not merely in Israel, but here as well, and not merely among the black-hats, but also among evangelicals. That kind of upbringing is a form of child abuse.
HS
I believe that society has the right to enforce their standards, with the minimal amount of force necessary. That’s generally accepted in Western law, and is the basis for any police force. In an anarchical situation, or under hostile occupation, in a situation where an organized police force is impossible a citzen militia is next best.
Do you think French partisans were justified for enforcing french law through vigilante justice under Nazi occupation?
Or, hitting a little closer to home, did you know that zionist terrorists enforced “avoda ivrit” and other zionist policies that way before the state?
Meah Shearim and RBS are two neighborhods that have decided a certain dress code is an important value to them. It’s their neighborhood. Obviously, a regulated police force would be optimal, but under zionist occupation it’s not very likely to happen. What other choice do they have?
What other choice do they have?
Clearly none. When they take over a formerly non-charedi neighborhood or a nationally owned bus line, clearly they are forced by the dastardly Zionists to resort to violence against Modern Orthodox Jews. It’s the Zionists’ fault.
New owners, new rules. How about zionist military law in the occupied territories?
You have absolutely got to be kidding. Do I understand you correctly? You’re equating rule of law with the beating of young women because they accidentally crossed an imaginary line?
This is the dumbest thing I’ve heard you say since you defended that rabbi who was railing against male and female super heroes flying around together on a box of macaroni.
It’s the most hateful thing I’ve heard you say since, “So I say something that causes someone to commit suicide. Big deal.”
Firstly, and, as is so often the case with you, your example isn’t even relevant. Dress code? Reportedly, the girls were “properly dressed”. Their crime, apparently, was walking through the neighborhood when the men were in heat.
Mohammed, get help. Seriously. You are not a well young man.
Reb Baruch Ber in his sefer HoRav HaDomeh LiMaloch (the Rabbi who was like an Angel) p206 quotes the Chofetz Chaim as saying, “The Jews of Russia made a mistake in not fighting the Bolsheviks with the sword and spear…even though they would die, they would weaken the force of evil and we would win.” Hearing this Reb Baruch seized an iron poker and said, “We are going.”. Some time later an embarrassed Reb Baruch returned to the Chofetz Chaim complaining “ I thought you said ‘chicks’ not ‘Bolsheviks’; I was hoping to fight adolescent girls not well armed fanatical communists!’
Mohammed, you have a profound lack of understanding of Western jurisprudence. Whilst post Enlightenment Jurisprudence recognizes the right of each society to set and enforce its own standards, it does not recognize religious groups as being distinct societies with autonomy to make and enforce their own laws. The principle of equality before the law means that any Haredi be he Israeli, French or American is bound by the same laws as his fellow enlightened citizen and he cannot excuse himself from those laws by reason of being nuts. The pre modern Ottoman Millet system is anathema to post enlightenment eyes and the Israeli authorities would do well to act as needed.
The French (whose partisans you rightly admire) are particularly proud of their secularism (although the English beat them to it) and have no time for clerical fascism. That is why they oppose the wearing of the veil in schools. For them, a Haredi seeking to enforce a tznius dresscode on a woman by the threat of beating is no different than a Hitler Youth seeking to enforce on a Jew the wearing of a yellow star by the threat of a beating.
Mohammed, why do you object to military law?. Do you believe the French (as well as the USA, Great Britain and the Soviet Union) were wrong to impose military law on Germany after WWII? Military law is far less oppressive then Gedoylim law.
I cannot understand your objection to ‘Avoda Ivrit’? By following a policy of ‘Avoda Guatemalanit’ instead of ‘Avoda Americanit’, the Haredim of Postville have to answer to Karl Marx’s assertion that the secular basis of Jewry is ‘practical need, self-interest and hucksterism’.
Incidently Mohammed, why do Hareidi men regularly subject their wives to the same haircut that the French mobs subjects women who prostituted themselves to German soldiers? Do they have a similar attitude to them?
he cannot excuse himself from those laws by reason of being nuts.
Oh-meyn.
Jeff
Firstly, and, as is so often the case with you, your example isn’t even relevant.
If you look at the first word of my post, you’ll see that it was addressed to Half Sours, in response to her comment “Mo,
Let’s be clear on something: How do you feel about hareidi men attack girls who are not dressed to the Hareidi standards of Tzniut?”
And in that context, it’s certainly relevant. No, it had nothing to do with DK’s post.
But unlike you or DK, I know the people and the neighborhood, and I know for an absolute 100% fact that there’s no way you can get 50 people there to scream at, much less beat up, three girls who were “properly” dressed and doing absolutely nothing. It’s analogous to me posting something ludicrous about a raging mob of UWS’ers on a Finnish blog, and asking you how you know it can’t be true. This story is either BS or else there’s a lot missing, and if it didn’t suit your prejudices so well to believe it you would realize that yourself.
Dumb. Hateful. So that’s me. You don’t like it? Take a flying fuck at a rolling doughnut.
Half Sours asked, “How do you feel about hareidi men attack girls who are not dressed to the Hareidi standards of Tzniut?”, and you responded by saying they’re entitled to define communal standards and to tendorce them. You ended by saying,
Meah Shearim and RBS are two neighborhods that have decided a certain dress code is an important value to them. It’s their neighborhood. Obviously, a regulated police force would be optimal, but under zionist occupation it’s not very likely to happen. What other choice do they have?
Umm – they have the choice not to enforce those standards by attacking casual passersby in defiance of the laws of the larger society in which they live, not to mention all notions of decency and common sense.
As far as this being an unlikely scenario – right. Because helige yidden would never behave in such a manner.
In addition to Half Sours’ testimony of her experience on Mt. Meron, I say it again – no one ever hears of Chareidim being attacked by the MO or the frei, whereas these stories come out of your world with increasing frequency as the years go by. And it isn’t because everyone on the outside is prejudiced against Chareidim.
This doesn’t address the issues of sexual molestation and domestic abuse. If you want to argue that they don’t occur with greater frequency within the frum community than they do in the secular world, fine – but you people tout yourselves as operating on a “higher level” of morality and spirituality.
*enforce*
Damn it, David…
Jeff
Just as a hypothetical, what do you think would happen in an American town with a nudity law if a nude person resisted their polices’ efforts to get him to put something on or leave the town limits?
If your whole argument is that the violence was disproportional, then I’ll answer you with Churchill’s words “we have already established what you are, Madam, we’re only arguing about the price.
What laws of which larger society? They don’t recognize the zionist entity.
Who are the frei you speak of? Are irreligious israelis included? What percent of israeli jails have blue collar criminals?
Do you consider the Dati Leumi fanatics in Hebron and the other occupied territories MO? And yes, I agree, most dentists and lawyers are not predisposed to violence. So what? MS and RBS are not Harlem or Bed Stuy. You don’t hear of mugging, rapes or murder, and you never hear about people being attacked unprovoked unless (in most cases) they’re biased, or when they didn’t understand or acknowledge the provocation.
No, this doesn’t address the issues of sexual molestation and domestic abuse. That wasn’t the topic, and you’re fixated on relevance. I find arguing about the holier than thou topic boring but if you want, I can always make the argument that our percentage of deviants is the same or lower than the general populations and our perverts are holier and more moral than your perverts.
Do you consider the Dati Leumi fanatics in Hebron and the other occupied territories MO?
No. No way. They are activist fundies.
MS and RBS are not Harlem or Bed Stuy.
Oh, aren’t you so wonderful. You guys really set the bar high. Wow, you are better than the “project n—–s” in Bed-Stuy.
You don’t hear of mugging
Pshhhhhh…
Wow Dk
Potshot a strawman. Is that the best you can do? There is almost no violence in the chareidi world, other than in one specific (religious) context. You and some other commenters are the ones making that comparison, by implication. Not me.
mohammed, we make the fatal mistake of judging your people as we would Jews.
But as Baruch noted, you are not Jews. You are haredim.
We need to curve downward, and applaud you bastards for not mugging and not actually blowing up buses.
There is almost no violence in the chareidi world, other than in one specific (religious) context.
Oh, bullshit. Y’all are always pummeling each other when someone breaks from party line.
Party line, religion, same thing. No, unfortunately not a fatal mistake.
There is almost no violence in the chareidi world, other than in one specific (religious) context.
That makes it better?
Just as a hypothetical, what do you think would happen in an American town with a nudity law if a nude person resisted their polices’ efforts to get him to put something on or leave the town limits?
That’s it. I’m out. I can’t waste any more time on this bullshit. You have absolutely no grounding in reality. Perhaps it’s your upbringing (Speaking of which – why the hell are you even on the internet? Isn’t it assur?), perhaps it’s genetic – whatever. Go talk to your invisible friend in the sky. The two of you can console yourselves with the thought of us burning in gehinnom.
And, come to think of it, I don’t buy that “no violence” bullshit, either. That’s why I threw in the line earlier about domestic abuse. I have it from a social worker who deals with the Hareidi community in NYC – the frequency is the same as in the outside world. You guys just have so many goddamn taboos about airing your dirty linen in front of the goyische velt that you’ve become more adept at hiding it. People suffer, while you spin your fantasies about the beauty of Hareidi domesticity.
Just as a hypothetical, what do you think would happen in an American town with a nudity law if a nude person resisted their polices’ efforts to get him to put something on or leave the town limits?
Clearly a mob would attack the nudist with bleach and blame it on the Zionists.
You sound like you have a massive inferiority complex. Why are you getting so worked up because someone else thinks they’re better than you? I personally can live with christians thinking I’m going to burn in hell for not accepting jesus and have no problem with them thinking they’re holier than I am.
Accepting your anecdotal evidence for the sake of the argument, so what?
The question isn’t whether chareidim are normal human beings with their statistical share of whatever. Domestic abuse, molestation. That doesn’t change the fact that there is much less blue collar crime in chareidi neighborhoods. Ask any cop.
The cop will tell you that blue collar crime rate in Haredi neighborhoods is comparable to blue collar crime by women in working class areas. Haredim are feminized. Working class women rarely violently victimize men. Such women victimize other women and children which explains why adolescent girls are victimized in RBS. Like any normal person, your average NYPD cop is as disgusted by unmanly behavior as by petty criminality
As for Haredim not ‘recognizing’ Israeli Justice or laws of the larger society; that is a good thing. It would be a sad day indeed for Israeli Justice to feel that it requires ‘recognition’ by religious maniacs as it would be for ‘larger society’ Justice to feel that it requires ‘recognition’ of by sex maniacs. One does not have to ‘recognize’ the validity of a jurisdiction to be subject to its law. Ask Saddam Hussein, Milosovic, Tojo and Georing.
Mo, David is getting all worked up because he wanted to be like them but they didnt accept him so he has an axe to grind. Hes like those guys who get all excited on the first day of highschool, ready to meet girls and play football, when they realize that theyre losers and don’t fit in they sit around all lunch period staring at everyone else having fun, discussing with theyre nerd friends about how everyone else is flawed excpet for them. Those are also the kinds of kids who end up shooting up they’re school.
Ynews report that:-
A resident of the southern town of Ashdod shocked local residents by running naked through city streets, after losing a card game bet. To his misfortune, the man was spotted by police and detained.
The bizarre story started around midnight Monday, when an Ashdod resident in his 20s lost a card game at his home. According to the rules of the game agreed on by the man and his friends beforehand, he then had to run butt naked from his home to the beach, take a swim in the sea, and return home.
The man delivered on his pledge, stunning surprised residents who spotted him running naked through the city’s streets and parks. Some concerned locals called the police and reported the unusual sight.
Patrol officer Levin Constantine went on to scour the area and ultimately spotted the man swimming. The suspect was ordered to come out of the water and at that point he informed police of the bet he lost.
“I ask you to allow me to return to my friends naked,” the man told the police officer, who refused the request and informed the man that he is being arrested on charges of public nudity.
Police covered the man with two sheets before taking him back to his home. While the suspect lost the card game and the bet, he finally received some good news: Police officials decided to close the case against him.
Mohammed, the naked swimmer let alone the police officer show more Menschlichkeit than your friends in RBS
face
the problem with your theory is that I happen to know DK.
the other problem with it is that it’s written on a third grade level.
I am in third grade
Face,
DK is the hippest cat pretty much anywhere he goes.
Mo,
“I know for an absolute 100% fact that there’s no way you can get 50 people there to scream at, much less beat up, three girls who were “properly” dressed and doing absolutely nothing.”
Your perception runs contrary to my my experience. And if the issue isn’t merely being a woman in the wrong place, it’s other ‘malachot’ — like being an Arab. I’ve seen, and there is video evidence on YouTube (taken by Michael of Jewlicious) of 20-30 Hareidi men, missing Kabbalat Shabbat on Friday night, just so they can hang around the shuk and harass ARAB workers cleaning up the streets, and locking up shops. I lived directly above the shuk in Beit Jewlicious Jerusalem for months, and I saw this happen half a dozen times. I heard an interesting theory that such is the only way that these suppressed young men can release frustration in a societally sanctioned way. But don’t trust me — look up the video. If I find it first, I’ll post it.
Now, as to what else can they do to ‘defend their neighborhoods’:
They can build an electrified wall around Meach Sharim that is 40 feet high with barbed wire. They should never, ever leave by bus, because public transportation and infrastructure are built by Zionists, and therefore must be goyeshe nachas. Same with the hospitals — and also since all the doctors are non-Chareidi, and maybe the women will be wearing brightly colored scrubs. And they should definitely not ever be allowed to go to the Kotel, since the Kotel is Zionist turf, defended and won by Zionists. Just stay in meah Sharim. Same with beit Shemesh. Never leave. You can keep it.
HS
My perception is based on living there for years and knowing the people. Your experiences of this sort happened once? five times? twenty max?
Have you considered the fact that there was a provocation which you didn’t notice or misunderstood?
In Meron on Lag Baomer, chareidim invested a lot of money in building a separate, gender separate path. Were there signs in hebrew that you missed?
If people invest time, money and effort in building a separate path and someone who could have gone by the regular path deliberately goes to theirs, I could understand their being upset enough to ask you to leave impolitely. Is it possible that that’s how it seemed to them?
There’s a tradition of Mazhirei Shabos, people going around and making sure the stores are closed, going back close to a hundred years at least. This has nothing to do with harrassing arabs. Some of the people who go there are regulars at pro palestinian demonstrations. This is making sure jewish owned stores are closed, and sometimes those stores also have arab workers. I’ve seen the video, and commented on it a long time ago.
Many chareidim don’t use public transportation or go to the kotel. For those reasons. An electrified wall would be nice, but impractical.
“An electrified wall would be nice, but impractical.”
Well then, we agree.
“Many chareidim don’t use public transportation or go to the kotel.”
Apparently not enough of them. You don’t like the state? Don’t take it’s money. Don’t use its services. Don’t use its hospitals.
“Your experiences of this sort happened once? five times? twenty max?”
Several experiences aren’t enough to know what’s what? The Zionists pave the streets. The Zionist build the sidewalks. you don’t want us walking among you? Build the wall.
“Have you considered the fact that there was a provocation which you didn’t notice or misunderstood?”
There was no provocation. Then again, to a rabid dog the slightest movement is a provocation. Your people are rabid dogs, and they ought to be in kennels.
“An electrified wall would be nice, but impractical.”
Why impractical? Is it money you’re worried about? You get the consent and I’ll rough up the donors. Do you mean it would be impractical because you couldn’t leave the shtetle? Too bad. There’s no infrastructure or means of travel that isn’t brought and run by the Zionists.
Several experiences are not much to go by when judging the intentions of an entire community. Especially when someone who knows that community slightly better tells you different.
“Apparently not enough of them. You don’t like the state? Don’t take it’s money.”
Why wouldn’t you take away money from someone you don’t like? The more you take the less they have. Besides, they extort enough from the chareidi community in taxes. The people that don’t take do it for religious reasons. An occupying power built sidewalks in a country that’s not theirs and we should get off the ground? Get consent from the israeli goverment and I’ll get you consent from the neighborhood.
“Your people are rabid dogs, and they ought to be in kennels.”
I should really gold frame this sentence and give it back to you when you’re in a better mood. Little Miss Tolerant.
“Little Miss Tolerant.”
Respectful, intellectually honest — Yes. ‘Tolerant’? Feh. My patience has been worn thin with tolerance for Hareidim. I don’t tolerate terrorism.
“Why wouldn’t you take away money from someone you don’t like?”
I should have known that the concept of integrity flies aloof of Hareidism.
“Besides, they extort enough from the chareidi community in taxes.”
Let’s be honest: Hareidim don’t pay taxes. Not in Brooklyn. Not in Midtown. Not in Israel either. You can’t pay taxes if you don’t work — liek th Charedidim of Israel. In Midtown they do work, but they cry poor to the government. They do a lot of dealing in cash. And don’t tell me you know better of the diamond industry; I’m Persian.
You pay taxes on every single thing you buy. Over there it’s called vat. And property taxes. I don’t work and I may have payed more taxes than your father to bloombergs goddamn cigarette hike.
Integrity from the wiki
Integrity comprises perceived consistency of actions, values, methods, measures and principles.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Integrity
Explain the inconsistency of taking away money from someone you hate?
Now you’re interested in philosophy? Bittul zman, gever. Bittul zman.
I can’t help you understand if you don’t.
come on, that’s a cop out.
OK, you’re right MO. It’s a cop out. Living off hand-outs from people you denigrate and despise is a form of meschkite; Emerison was a putz.
Emerson*
Sh’koyach, HalfSours. Haredi culture extols abdication of responsibility before and during the crisis and crying and blaming others afterwards. God gave us eyes, ears, legs, a back and a brain for a reason. Adam was put into creation “l’avdo ve-lishomro”, to work the garden and protect it, and we’re not in Gan Eden anymore.
I second the sh’koyach. He won’t back down, though. You’re a woman, and you aren’t Hareidi (and therefore not really frum), and he’d consider it a sign of weakness.
Only haredim have a right to question the actions and interpretations of haredim.
If I saw these Charedim throwing rocks at cars driving through these neighborhoods on Shabbat, I would say to them I thought it was אסור to pick up a rock let alone throw it. 2 wrongs don’t make a right. One of my Rabbeim who lives in Ramat Beit Shemesh was asked to remove his Israeli flag from his terrace. Anyone who suggests this is biting the hand that feeds him. Is it not enough are at war with Hamas? Do we need to be at war with each other?
If I saw these Charedim throwing rocks at cars driving through these neighborhoods on Shabbat, I would
Run over them.
Yeah, so obviously I condemn the rock-throwing. But just to answer your question, Avi Chaim: rocks aren’t muktzah on shabbos if you set them aside beforehand for a specific purpose. They set their rocks aside for throwing at cars before shabbos. So while there are lots of things wrong with the rock-throwing, hilchos shabbos isn’t one of them.
So while there are lots of things wrong with the rock-throwing, hilchos shabbos isn’t one of them.
Proof that you can be frum and a complete degenerate criminal.
Like we needed proof.
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