What if it happened to yours?
December 16, 2008 Haredim, Humor, Israel
Jacob da Jew asks, in regards to the newest vicious haredi attack on Modern Orthodox maidens,
I don’t get why the MOs there don’t band together and fight those charedi assholes.
If Chassidim did that to my Modern Orthodox family members, I would find out which sect they were from. Then, on Friday night, I would attend their tisch, dressed like a flaming baal teshuvah, replete with the hefker jacket. I would march up to the rebbe, chop his head off, pull his brains out unto a silver platter, and announce,
“Here’s your sherayim, you bastards!”
52 comments
On the other hand, this has been a good excuse for not visiting relatives in Ramat BetShemesh. And I’m not letting my daughters do anymore babysitting for cousins there until they can carry a weapon.
You just couldn’t help it, DK, eh? Everything has to be with sarcasm “The Jacob Jew person”. I appreciate the link but why be nasty about it?
changed.
Jacob,
DK, can’t help himself. He’s got to add in the “flaming baal teshuvah” zing (with a link) as well.
That’s pretty much why no one really takes him seriously, even when he has something important to say.
David Linn, is there a single critic of the kiruv movement anywhere who isn’t Orthodox that you take seriously?
Yes.
And who might that be, David? Because FWIW, you have consistently sought to reject and undermine almost all of my claims against Ohr Somayach as the “personal experience” of someone who was “wounded,” assiduously ignoring all documents I have brought from OS’s own website.
Not once have you conceded that any of them are a problem. Not Weinbach’s call for Theocracy, his blaming tragedy on insufficient Kollel support from the State of Israel, his claim of magic rugs taking a rabbi across the Mediterranean Sea, his insistence that the Russo-Georgian war was ended by a Gadol’s blessing — a claim made five week’s after the story was proven false, and many more such incidents. Not once. Rather, it all stems from my (and others) own “personal” experience which cannot be trusted, and which contradicts your own experience — an experience that preempts concern over any documents by the very top of OS.
David Linn, so sensitive to wisecracks made at his site’s expense, has had no qualms in portraying ex-BT critics as though they are merely skateboarders with an anarchist symbol stickered on.
To wit: http://www.beyondbt.com/?p=603#comment-29953
I would add that others have been “hurt” by the “system” and will do anything to “bring it down”.
Touchy, touchy.
To save those of you who are interested in this little snit between DK and myself the trouble of clicking the linl, here is the comment he linked to:
“Some just want to do their thing and some have an axe to grind.”
I would add that others have been “hurt” by the “system” and will do anything to “bring it down”. (I guess that could be included in the “axe to grind category)
Stll others have encountered inexperienced or inarticulate kiruv professionals (though well meaning) and have developed an opinion of Torah and Torah observant Jews on that basis.
With many, though not all (I believe they are as varied as any other demographic) it is a case of falling into the trap of “judging Judaism by Jews”. They have experienced or heard of “frum Jews” who have done something wrong. Therefore, the Torah can’t be good or true. It is, lehavdil, like saying that the concept of American democracy is bad and wrong because there are klansmen that live and thrive in America.
The overwhelming majority of these types of blogs do not make intellectual or emotional arguments against the Torah. They tend to revel in the mistakes, errors and sins of prominent frum Jews and repeatedly harp on a pet issue deriving from their experiences.
It is, lehavdil, like saying that the concept of American democracy is bad and wrong because there are klansmen that live and thrive in America.
No, it isn’t like that at all. Are American leaders defending and enabling these people? Does the “Godol” of the Klan have ultimate power on how the U.S. perceives their actions?
None of this allows that there are serious problems with becoming ultra-Orthodox. Only mistakes. Human imperfections. Nothing structural.
And always, always, the implicit attempted character slander of all who were there and disagree.
You can and probably will continue to refuse to acknowledge any problems with any of your beloved ultra-Orthodox and haredi kiruv orgs, and you will continue to agitate that all of us are unhinged.
But I will continue to bring and store documents to defend my case and perspective. And over time, this will gain ground. No one outside of Orthodoxy is going to trust a kiruvnik’s slander over documents demonstrating how fundie OS is.
I guess you missed the parts where I said:
“I believe they are as varied as any other demographic”
Here is an excerpt of another comment of mine from that same thread which sheds some light on my position in regard to your argument:
“I’m not sure that I understand what you mean by this. Perhaps you are falling into the trap (one that I often fall into) of viewing your own experience as everyone else’s experience. No one can deny that you had a bad experience. What they can deny is that your personal experience is indicative of an all-encompassing weltenschaung.
While I don’t want to say that my personal experiences are indicative of a broader reality either but I will say that my experience in this area has been quite the opposite. I have asked for halachic advice and guidance and been sometimes shocked at the level of leniency applied. These answers were most often given in the area of relations with non-frum family members.
Another mistake you may be making is painting all “frum” Jews into a neat monolithic box. I think you would agree that Mark, Ron, Steve Brizel, and I are all different, no? Yet, we all consider ourselves frum BTs. Why, then should we talk about one derech, one angle, one approach to an idea? It may even be that all of us would disagree with that approach.”
Perhaps you are falling into the trap (one that I often fall into) of viewing your own experience as everyone else’s experience.
That’s a major problem, David. You conflate all evidence I bring from OS’s own site as part of my “personal experience” compared to your own “personal experience.”
This is a denial of documents. Why don’t you see the problem, David? Why don’t you allow for other information besides “personal experiences”?
DK, that’s what we were talking about on that thread. Please don’t pretend that I haven’t shared with you my own issues and concerns with certain kiruv methods, yeshivas, organizations, etc.
David, you have publicly sought on other sites as well as this one to portray all documents I have presented from OS itself as irrelevant to the matter. You only discuss that you and I had very different personal experiences, jettisoning the importance of OS’s documents.
I resent that a lot. Do you do that as a lawyer? Do you refuse to address documents? Do you just stick to, “Well, my client had a different experience.”
What kind of nonsense are you pulling, David? And why?
I recall one, maybe two, instances that we even had a discussion of documents on a website. And, I believe, I was right. This has nothing to do with what I do for a living (if you could call it that) but if you think that scores you points, enjoy yourself. I will refrain from commenting upon what you do for a living, it’s not necessary and it’s not nice. I expected more from you.
Anyway, this thread is a perfect proof of how you get yourself so frenzied over a small point that you commit every “wrong” that you otherwise disparage in others.
I have told you umpteen times that, in my opinion, it’s not your message but your method. Wouldn’t you have made a stronger point on this post with out disparaging Jacob or Beyond BT. Did that help your point or hurt it?
Thanks for fixing the link, DK.
David, within minutes of my commenting, DK fixed the link.
Jacob,
I must admit, that in the past, he has often fixed things when pointed out. I definitely give him that.
I recall one, maybe two, instances that we even had a discussion of documents on a website.
that is because you have refused to have that discussion, despite my repeated attempts to have it. And it is infuriating. I am not asking people to believe me because I said so. I bring document over document — with links for verification and review to see that I am not taking the source out of context. And you have no comment.
I have told you umpteen times that, in my opinion, it’s not your message but your method.
No — you ignore my method. You concentrate on my tone. That isn’t the point. The point are the problems of Ohr Somayach, Aish, and other BT yeshivas and seminaries. You do not address the points. You ignore the points. You talk about how you had a different “personal experience.”
I seek discussion on what OS and the other BT places stand for, and you seem to feel that offering a mussar shmuz is a sufficient response.
David, I deleted the link you objected to. Now how about discussing the specific points about OS–the ones form OS’s own documents — that you have never addressed in any substantial way, that I listed above.
“No — you ignore my method. You concentrate on my tone.”
You are correct, that is probably a better term for my critique. But the gist is pretty much the same: You’re not going to change anybody or anything by calling them names. In fact, they are more likely to just turn away from you even more.
I really don’t believe that you “seek discussion” of these issues. If you did you would engage in discussion not diatribe. It’s your blog, you’re entitled but you shouldn’t be surprised when , as mentioned earlier “no one really takes [you] seriously, even when [you] have something important to say.” (You might want to focus on the “something important to say” part).
David, I don’t know that this is true. I do know that many in the ultra-Orthodox world seek to find excuses not to listen. I don’t expect them to ever take me seriously. My goal is not to convince them. My ultimate goal is to convince the liberal and secular Jews.
With you, well, we are friendly, so it does have a personal disappointment.
You have never once said about OS, “That is wrong.” or “That doesn’t make any sense.” No matter how extreme or even crazy the position.
I find that curious and upsetting, because I expect differently from you than Cross Currents.
Just because I don’t make a public issue out of something doesn’t mean I don’t make my voice heard through channels that may make a difference.
David, you seek to moderate something that is fundie to the core. I seek to expose it to the community they prey upon.
Why not admit that is what you don’t like? Why not admit you resent that I want to stop them, not reform them?
I don’t resent it at all. You have your own choices to make and I have mine. This is turning into an email conversation, isn’t it?
I would ask one thing, David. Please stop referencing the body of my work on kiruv as reducible to a different personal experience than the one you had. I do a lot of research, and I bring a lot of relevant documents. If you aren’t willing to address them, at least don’t dismiss their importance.
If I’ve done that, I apologize.
David, I’m looking at the R. Maryles blog, and it looks like at least there, you didn’t do that, though certainly others did. So I would like to partially retract what I said, and say that instead, you used your own personal experience as a rebuttal without addressing documents. While this is still unfortunate, it is not as sweeping as what I was accusing you of, and was brought up more when I brought Seth’s story, which was a personal ancedote.
Power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely according to the old saw. As I’ve said before, as long as all of Judaism defers to the BH crowd as the pinnacle of Jewishness, they will maintain the power, and thus temptation to corruption.
The desire to fix this cannot have motivation in anger at or hate for them, nor the corruption already there. It has to be the same tough love motivation as parents would in dragging a teen to rehab for a drug problem.
In terms of the Jewish world, it has to be the non-BH world coming up with their own vision and practice of their own vibrant Jewish spirituality. Failing that so far, BTs end up gravitating either to the fearful charedi side, or the more pleasant Chabad but there’s no reason the Reform (or Conservative) world couldn’t keep their own kids right there at their shul embracing their ways if they first stopped surrendering before the first shot.
If they could stop giving the power up to the BH world, they could drain the corrupting influence away, and maybe get this sort of thing to be a dim memory. But right now, they already see themselves as victorious in holding the high ground without serious challenge.
I appreciate that. I only posted one comment on that thread and only because someone mentioned me by name. Here is the meat of that comment:
My time in OS was 15-20 years ago so I can only speak to what the place was like back then. Many people here seem to think that is completely irrelevant and there is some truth to that. However, I think it is important to realize that a lot of the criticism being lobbed at OS now is similar to what was being leveled when I was there. As such, if my experiences back then contradicted those criticisms, it’s certainly possible that the same is true now.
I will first highlight how my experience differed from “Seth’s”. In my “suite” of rooms, there were at least 2 or 3 guys that were sports fans and we would pass around the Jerusalem Post to peruse standings and box scores. My friends and I played soccer a few times a week. I did get a little pressure to stay and learn longer to which I did not give in. (Indeed, after the fact, I felt that I should have learned longer). Most of the newbies that rushed into hats, beards and black and white clothes were privately addressed and told to “slow down”. I never personally experienced anyone being “shut down” or chastised for raising questions. Quite the opposite, questions were encouraged. I remember one Rabbi particularly advising us to write to our parents, keep in touch with them, not to judge them and to express gratitude to them. I never heard a staff member disparage Modern Orthodoxy and, at the time, I considered myself to be MO so I would likely have been attuned to that.
While I was there, we certainly knew that some considered OS a place where you would get brainwashed. One of my roomates had an eye massager which looked like a sci-fi pair of glasses with square boxes that sat upon the eyelids and vibrated. Once or twice, we brought a “new guy” to our room, sat him in a chair and explained how we would be instituting the brainwashing that he might have heard about. (Boy, what yeshiva boys will do for fun).
Certainly, there were individuals there who had “flipped out” but I never felt any overt pressure to conform. What people have been saying about filtering is important. Any institution with open doors is going to invite its fair share of unstable and pliable individuals. It is critical to differentiate between what is being taught and what people are picking up from others around them. That is not to discount peer pressure and the pull of conformity but those are things that exist outside the walls of OS as well.
Perhaps it is a fair question whether a 17 year old is mature enough to undertake the filtering that is necessary or to be his “own man” in such surroundings. That, however, is a much larger question and is not limited to OS.
“Perhaps it is a fair question whether a 17 year old is mature enough to undertake the filtering that is necessary or to be his “own man” in such surroundings. That, however, is a much larger question and is not limited to OS.”
Indeed. As if young people have not always been 1) vulnerable to ideological manipulation, and 2) resposible for their own thought processes and intellecual development.
I fail to see that OS has a lock on a brainwashing scheme so powerful and so unprecedented that youth is unable to resist. Many, many things pass, ultimately inert, throught the intellectual digestive system of the adolescent/young adult: socialism, objectivism, spirituality, anti-spirituality, anarchism. It makes life interesting and gives one something to turn against later on,which is also not a bad thing.
On the other hand, DK, you have, a Linn wrote, hijacked a potentially fascinating thread into a private e-mail conversation. This is neither productive nor diverting, and that IS a bad thing. Most of us do not care all that much about your personal issues.
Perhaps the sycophantic willingness of most “kiruv” folk to feign interest in the personal issues of a prospective “catch” was instrumental in your having fallen for their bait hook, like, and sinker as a youth. Sheesh, DK, let it go.
Others among us were born with a full set of sharp teeth and a delight in using them. Some of us got great delight from baiting Moonies and Hare Krishnas, and driving missionaries to tears. I was once informed by a “kee-roov professional” that I have a “yetzer for asking too many questions”.
Let’s get back to the psycho-social-sexual reasons that packs of young haredim use physical violence on “outsiders”. Perhaps we can talk of effective weapons and tactics to oppose same. Now THAT’S interesting.
On the other hand, DK, you have, a Linn wrote, hijacked a potentially fascinating thread into a private e-mail conversation. This is neither productive nor diverting, and that IS a bad thing. Most of us do not care all that much about your personal issues.
Such things happen on blogs sometimes. Linn is important, as he represents the other side to kiruv. We have managed to stay friendly, and that may because he and Mark are admittedly not as hot-headed as myself, but misunderstandings and resentments do arise, and it is important to talk them out. Sometimes these conversations are private, sometimes they are public. But I don’t see it as the end of the world if they are sometimes public.
Perhaps the sycophantic willingness of most “kiruv” folk to feign interest in the personal issues of a prospective “catch” was instrumental in your having fallen for their bait hook, like, and sinker as a youth.
Not sure what you are getting at or why, but you are getting kind of insulting and making a LOT of assumptions. If the kiruv oriented threads don’t interest you, go on to the next post. This has a baal teshuvah mention in the post, even with the link to Beyond BT deleted, and there are a substantial number of some posts about kiruv on this site, and there will continue to be. It’s an area of interest, and even specialty.
” But I don’t see it as the end of the world if they are sometimes public.”
No, not the end of the world. But not of general interest, and worse, boring.
“Linn is important, as he represents the other side to kiruv.”
“THE other side”? Bifurcate much, DK? This is an exceedingly complicated issue, involving issues of intellectual and emotional pressure, free thought, regulating access to ideas and their means of promotion, vs. the right of the free adult consumer to graze and choose what, if any, he wishes to select.
“Perhaps the sycophantic willingness of most “kiruv” folk to feign interest in the personal issues of a prospective “catch”….”
Sorry if you find this insulting, but everything doesn’t have to be about me, me, me., or rather, you, you, you. It’s tedious, and it deflects energies from REAL issues of educational, sociological and legal import, which are relevant to the whole “kiruv”issue.
Otherwise, one could change the title of the blog to “DK Is Very Upset About What Happenned to HIM”. But as we said, that would not be of general interest.
Otherwise, one could change the title of the blog to “DK Is Very Upset About What Happenned to HIM”. But as we said, that would not be of general interest.
I don’t think that’s fair, C.S. DK posts about a number of topics that don’t relate directly to kiruv – and my sense of it has been that he attempts to be objective.
As far as his sparring partners are concerned – my repeated and overwhelming experience has been that people of (largely conservative or regressive) faith – and this is especially true of converts – evidence a tremendous amount of denial (this is not directed at you, C.S.). It goes with the territory. So, in a brawl between David and and one of his BT opponents – experience leads me to side with DK nearly every time (actually, I can’t think of an instance in which I haven’t).
Now if we could just get him to give up that gold lamé jacket …
You’re a potential murder with serious psychopathic issues.
DK, you have a new fan.
“I would march up to the rebbe, chop his head off, pull his brains out unto a silver platter” What else would you do to him David? I’m interested…
face. look for those “satire” and “humor” tags.
DK, don’t forget to give out little pieces of the rebbe to his followers. You know how much they look forward to that.
Can you make a satirical humorous post about rape next? You got me cracking up buddy!
Eyges–Could you please just clarify :
“As far as his sparring partners are concerned – my repeated and overwhelming experience has been that people of (largely conservative or regressive) faith – and this is especially true of converts – evidence a tremendous amount of denial (this is not directed at you, C.S.). It goes with the territory”
In the interest of truth. And just sparring for the hell of it.
guy–Come on, DK was JOKING. And does it not offend your sense of justice that post-pubescent (let us not say “adult”) males are brutally attacking defenseless females in Ramat Beit Shemesh?
Fantasy come-uppance aside, it would be EVEN BETTER to have a couple of maidelech take their Friday postprandial stroll in RBS packing heat. Why bother eviscerating those inbred geeks when a round over their heads would cause them loss of sphincter control? And those long full skirts certainly leave room to conceal a weapon.
Remember, you can get more with a kind word and a gun than you can with a kind word alone.
I didn’t mean that you were one of his sparring partners. I meant Chareidm, the people from BeyondBT, etc. who come here to tell him he doesn’t know what he’s talking about.
As for the rest of it – I see fundamentalist-style faith as a form of addiction, accompanied by its attendant personality symptoms – chief of which is denial. So, when they come here with their stories about how everything really is just fine in Frumville – I believe David.
And I think maidelach packing heat is a good idea (as well as a good title for a Jewish crime ) novel!
Go DK! David’s full of bull.
Hi Jeff!
DK, I knew we should have hashed this out via e-mail like we usually do, oh well.
Nice to see you, OTD.
Eyges–Thanks for the clarification. I am inclined to class haredism as another form of Obsessive-Compulsive Disorder more than an addiction. In addition, the constant need to convince others of the absolute rightness of ones’ own beliefs is indicative of insecurity about those beliefs.
Also, having grown up in the South, I tend to switch off evangelization, wherever the source, the minute anyone starts broadcasting, and this carries over into my views on Judaism. Why sell religion like it was a detergent? (On the other hand, why sell it like a truss–not as though it was something intrinsically shameful and unappealing.) Why “sell” at all, unless you have some inner need to prove the value of the product to yourself?
As regards “Everything’s fine in Frumville”", my God, the things I have seen and see every day. I was up late last night working on a heartbreakingly beautiful toddler whose parents and caretakers beat him into a vegitative state. This is the “we had to destroy the child in order to save him” school of parenting so much in vogue in Ramat Beit Shemesh and other cultural centers.
I am inclined to class haredism as another form of Obsessive-Compulsive Disorder more than an addiction.
Can’t we have both? : )
OCD runs in my family, actually. Frum nephew has a particularly fierce case of it. I’ve believed all along that it’s been a large part of the attraction for him.
In addition, the constant need to convince others of the absolute rightness of ones’ own beliefs is indicative of insecurity about those beliefs.
Why “sell” at all, unless you have some inner need to prove the value of the product to yourself?
Agreed, absolutely. I see it among evangelicals all the time. The proselytizer isn’t trying to convince you; he’s attempting to convince himself. If he can convince you that he’s right, he can stave off for a little while longer the ever-present doubt that threatens to overtake him.
This is why frummies and and evangelicals detest the outside world in general, and secular education in particular. They realize it has the potential to topple the house of cards.
I was up late last night working on a heartbreakingly beautiful toddler whose parents and caretakers beat him into a vegitative state. This is the “we had to destroy the child in order to save him” school of parenting so much in vogue in Ramat Beit Shemesh and other cultural centers.
You live in Israel, right? Are you a doctor? Was this another case like the one we were discussing recently, about the little boy who died? Does this happen all the time (as I suspect)? Did you report it to the authorities? Will they do anything about it – or are they all just chicken-shit terrified of the Chareidim?
But, of course, there’s far less violence among Chareidim than there is among frei Jews – or among goyim, who have the souls of animals. Naturally, our Chareidi commenters wouldn’t see this as “violence”, because they were brought up in that environment. They regard it as normative. If you can justify beating up an adolescent girl for flashing some ankle, you can certainly justify beating a little boy who failed to memorize a page of Gemara.
Heilige yidden.
Hey, OTD!
David: Pleasure’s all mine.
Jeff: Hi!
Jeff: Good points about the violence. The story sounds terrible, and I’d love to hear more about it. Of course, frummies are WAY more moral than everyone else. These are just isolated incidents, of course, their crime rates are WAY lower than the rest of society’s…and then they have the chutzpa of telling us secular folk that our morals are worse than theirs. If only we’d be a bit more religious, we’d be so much more moral. they’re insane.
Eyges–Yes, I live in Israel, and I am a nurse. This is a case that was in the news a while ago, one of the siblings who was “injured”. He’s been a vegetable, but no one really thinks of that. In comparison, the Valis baby may have been lucky. There’s not a place in hell hot enough for the people responsible for this.
No, it doesn’t happen all the time, and oh boy, was this reported. One thing the haredim do with astounding frequency is give birth to mentally/physically handicapped children and basically abandon them to the hospital for months at a time while they “decide” what to do, while the mother “rests”, while they “get advice from the rebbe”. In the meantime, the baby lies there abandoned in the hospital most of the time. Sometimes we get well-meaning volunteers from their community, who generally have no idea what to do and don’t even touch the baby. Sometimes they sit around chatting on their cell phones, somtimes they read Tehillim. So much for early intervention. so much for the vaunted haredi respect for human life.
They also send volunteers to “sit with” sick and injured children, who don’t even know them. Often the mother never comes, and obviously the kid is scared shitless of the volunteer and vice versa. We’ve had haredi kids less that two years old with serious total body burns (usually hot water from the Shabbat urn, once even one who fell into a vat of hot soup at a Succot party) who were virtually cared for only by a succession of strangers while they had to endure painful treatmets and dressing changes, infections, and surgery. Mother was at home with the new baby and couldn’t come in. It’s like “We burned the old baby, but that’s ok, we’ve already got a new one.” People show more sentiment about pancakes.
We’ve had haredi parents shut off their phones after being told that insurance will no longer pay for the hospital care of their severely handicapped child, thus making us one of the most expensive babysitting services in the world. This can go on for months. They won’t commit to foster care or to relinquishing custody, but they’ll let their babies sit there like cars in a long-term parking garage. They won’t abort, but they have no qualms about leaving their own children in a living death by abandoning them in the hospital.
There are some big names and well-known rebbishe families involved, but as I said, the practice is quite common and nobody thinks anything of it.
Needless to say, staff, including Orthodox staff, does not hold the haredi community in high regard.
One thing the haredim do with astounding frequency is give birth to mentally/physically handicapped children
Yeah, this has been my impression. I have to think it’s a result of inbreeding.
When you grow up in a family of ten, twelve kids, experience little interaction with parents who are basically adolescents themselves, who can’t even relate to each other effectively, let alone the children… It’s just a nightmare. Sarah/Froylein has commented here before about the detached attitude Hareidi parents seem to take toward their kids.
It really should be put a stop to. Their world is crumbling, and won’t last but another generation or two, but it would be great if we could stop it now and spare the children needless suffering.
It’s a collective psychosis.
Inbreeding is definitely a factor, but another key point is failure to accept responsibility for the offspring after the fact. You decided to bring this baby into the world, you take care of him, or at least take conscious action to pass that responsibility into more reliable hands. Grab the reins, for God’s sake, don’t just sit there. Haredi culture tends to develop people who have a hard time setting realistic priorities and thinking for themselves, which is disatrous in a crisis.
They spend a lot of energy rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic and calling that hishtadlut, and this tends to be their attitude across the board. Yes, it is a collective psychosis.
They spend a lot of energy rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic and calling that hishtadlut, and this tends to be their attitude across the board.
Yes, very well put.
C.S., I had just posted about this “abandonment” phenomena: http://jacobdajew.blogspot.com.....-just.html
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