Comments on: Today is day one for celebrating when the Haredi Jews killed the Reform Jews http://kvetcher.net/2008/12/2204/today-is-the-day-one-for-celebrating-when-the-haredi-jews-killed-the-reform-jews/ kvetch \KVECH\, intransitive verb: To complain habitually. noun: 1. A complaint 2. A habitual complainer. Mon, 15 Mar 2010 19:43:33 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.2 hourly 1 By: HalfSours http://kvetcher.net/2008/12/2204/today-is-the-day-one-for-celebrating-when-the-haredi-jews-killed-the-reform-jews/comment-page-2/#comment-9160 HalfSours Wed, 24 Dec 2008 16:31:24 +0000 http://kvetcher.net/?p=2204#comment-9160 "If I remember correctly, it says in Josephus that the hellenist sympathisers dragged the skin up to cover the place of the foreskin" If Josephus wrote that, that changes everything. “If I remember correctly, it says in Josephus that the hellenist sympathisers dragged the skin up to cover the place of the foreskin”

If Josephus wrote that, that changes everything.

]]> By: Reb Leibish http://kvetcher.net/2008/12/2204/today-is-the-day-one-for-celebrating-when-the-haredi-jews-killed-the-reform-jews/comment-page-2/#comment-9159 Reb Leibish Wed, 24 Dec 2008 15:18:24 +0000 http://kvetcher.net/?p=2204#comment-9159 The Haredi narrative about the Maccabees revolt and its causes bears no relationship to reality. Jews were content to be part of the Seleucid Empire until it became weak and oppressive just as the American colonists were happy to be subjects of the British Crown until that government became weak and oppressive and they saw advantages in challenging the status quo. Mohammed may indeed believe that Haredim descended on the Greek polis and set the garbage cans of Reform Jews on fire just as he believes that the French Resistance in WWII are to be compared to the frummermentalists of Ramat Bet Shemesh. There is no reason to accept his version of 'reality'. For a historical perspective see http://www.houseofdavid.ca/maccabee.htm You can then light your menorah and sing Maoz Tsur and eat some latkes without suffering any moral qualms. Don't forget to take some latkes as refreshments to Mohammed. He will be spending the night manning an anti aircraft gun ready to shoot down any reindeers flying over Monsey. The Haredi narrative about the Maccabees revolt and its causes bears no relationship to reality. Jews were content to be part of the Seleucid Empire until it became weak and oppressive just as the American colonists were happy to be subjects of the British Crown until that government became weak and oppressive and they saw advantages in challenging the status quo.
Mohammed may indeed believe that Haredim descended on the Greek polis and set the garbage cans of Reform Jews on fire just as he believes that the French Resistance in WWII are to be compared to the frummermentalists of Ramat Bet Shemesh. There is no reason to accept his version of ‘reality’.

For a historical perspective see
http://www.houseofdavid.ca/maccabee.htm

You can then light your menorah and sing Maoz Tsur and eat some latkes without suffering any moral qualms. Don’t forget to take some latkes as refreshments to Mohammed. He will be spending the night manning an anti aircraft gun ready to shoot down any reindeers flying over Monsey.

]]> By: Sarah/froylein http://kvetcher.net/2008/12/2204/today-is-the-day-one-for-celebrating-when-the-haredi-jews-killed-the-reform-jews/comment-page-2/#comment-9157 Sarah/froylein Wed, 24 Dec 2008 06:02:59 +0000 http://kvetcher.net/?p=2204#comment-9157 Should read: ...to base a theory on... Should read: …to base a theory on…

]]> By: Sarah/froylein http://kvetcher.net/2008/12/2204/today-is-the-day-one-for-celebrating-when-the-haredi-jews-killed-the-reform-jews/comment-page-2/#comment-9156 Sarah/froylein Wed, 24 Dec 2008 06:01:54 +0000 http://kvetcher.net/?p=2204#comment-9156 Ahavah, the premise for that reasoning is the long-proven incorrect assumption [explained above] that Mt is the oldest of the gospels. That assumption lost all its credibility in the early 20th century. To base a theory to an already per se determined fallacy doesn't make neither the theory nor the fallacy any more true. I've explained above how a Hebrew influence could come about. The conclusions some people apparently draw from such influences are nothing but a hysteron proteron. Ahavah, the premise for that reasoning is the long-proven incorrect assumption [explained above] that Mt is the oldest of the gospels. That assumption lost all its credibility in the early 20th century. To base a theory to an already per se determined fallacy doesn’t make neither the theory nor the fallacy any more true. I’ve explained above how a Hebrew influence could come about. The conclusions some people apparently draw from such influences are nothing but a hysteron proteron.

]]> By: mohammed http://kvetcher.net/2008/12/2204/today-is-the-day-one-for-celebrating-when-the-haredi-jews-killed-the-reform-jews/comment-page-2/#comment-9154 mohammed Wed, 24 Dec 2008 01:27:29 +0000 http://kvetcher.net/?p=2204#comment-9154 If I remember correctly, it says in Josephus that the hellenist sympathisers dragged the skin up to cover the place of the foreskin משכו ערלתן I think it's fair to presume that people that went through that wouldn't circumsize their kids. If I remember correctly, it says in Josephus that the hellenist sympathisers dragged the skin up to cover the place of the foreskin
משכו ערלתן
I think it’s fair to presume that people that went through that wouldn’t circumsize their kids.

]]> By: Ariel Sokolovsky www.bostonchabad.com http://kvetcher.net/2008/12/2204/today-is-the-day-one-for-celebrating-when-the-haredi-jews-killed-the-reform-jews/comment-page-2/#comment-9153 Ariel Sokolovsky www.bostonchabad.com Wed, 24 Dec 2008 01:06:05 +0000 http://kvetcher.net/?p=2204#comment-9153 B"H Also on the topic of forced conversions. A war captive male or female would have the status of eved knaani-cananite servant. He would be circumcized and forced to observe mitzvot lo taaseh and mitzvot oseh she ein ba zman groma - the prohibitions as well as positive commands not limited to specific time. If such person would be freed he would have the status of a Jew . The Torah allows Jews to wage milchamat reshut -optional war of conquest. The war involves taking captives . May be this can explain the rationale behind the forced conversion of Edomites by Macabees? B”H
Also on the topic of forced conversions.
A war captive male or female would have the status of eved knaani-cananite servant.
He would be circumcized and forced to observe mitzvot lo taaseh and mitzvot oseh she ein ba zman groma – the prohibitions as well as positive commands not limited to specific time.
If such person would be freed he would have the status of a Jew .
The Torah allows Jews to wage milchamat reshut -optional war of conquest.
The war involves taking captives . May be this can explain the rationale behind the forced conversion of Edomites by Macabees?

]]> By: Ariel Sokolovsky www.bostonchabad.com http://kvetcher.net/2008/12/2204/today-is-the-day-one-for-celebrating-when-the-haredi-jews-killed-the-reform-jews/comment-page-2/#comment-9152 Ariel Sokolovsky www.bostonchabad.com Wed, 24 Dec 2008 00:38:10 +0000 http://kvetcher.net/?p=2204#comment-9152 B"H <i> But forced conversions have no Torah precedent. correct? We are talking about FORCED conversions.</i> And what do you call the case of a yafat toar beautiful woman captive? does that not involve a forced conversion? (The Rambam paskens that unless she abandons idolworship within a year she forefeits her life) Why was Shlomo haMelech chastised for allowing his wives to revert to idol worship? What about the posuk in the end of the Megilat Esther about many among the goyim converting because the fear of Jews fell upon them? What about the statement in Kuzari about the right of a king to cause his people to convert? Is that not a forced conversion? What about the opinion in the Talmud that in the world to come the goym will be forced to observe the Shabbat? What about the Midrash about Hashem suspending Mt. Sinai over our heads forcing us to accept the Torah? (I am not saying that the support for forced conversions was always regarded as a good thing in Judaism rather that it is not imposible to find sources in support of it and while now we don't practically rule like that in their time Macabees apparently chose to do so.) "The ability to tolerate idols in the temple and pig sacrifices when you can stand up and stop this wouldn’t have been judged as a great merit either." <i>Once again, I am not defending Greek oppression.</i> I understand that however it is hard to understand why would you expect people who just freed themselves from oppression of foreigners and their collaborators to allow full religious freedom for their opponents. When two factions of the same religion are a minority under opression by others one can see mutual love and tolerance as the best policy yet when one party gains control over whole country after battling the foreign occupiers and the others who colabarated with them it is logical to expect it to solidify it's rule by eliminating or marginalizing all opposition political and religious. B”H

But forced conversions have no Torah precedent. correct? We are talking about FORCED conversions.

And what do you call the case of a yafat toar beautiful woman captive? does that not involve a forced conversion?
(The Rambam paskens that unless she abandons idolworship within a year she forefeits her life)
Why was Shlomo haMelech chastised for allowing his wives to revert to idol worship?
What about the posuk in the end of the Megilat Esther about many among the goyim converting because the fear of Jews fell upon them?
What about the statement in Kuzari about the right of a king to cause his people to convert? Is that not a forced conversion?
What about the opinion in the Talmud that in the world to come the goym will be forced to observe the Shabbat?
What about the Midrash about Hashem suspending Mt. Sinai over our heads forcing us to accept the Torah?
(I am not saying that the support for forced conversions was always regarded as a good thing in Judaism rather that it is not imposible to find sources in support of it and while now we don’t practically rule like that in their time Macabees apparently chose to do so.)
“The ability to tolerate idols in the temple and pig sacrifices when you can stand up and stop this wouldn’t have been judged as a great merit either.”

Once again, I am not defending Greek oppression.

I understand that however it is hard to understand why would you expect people who just freed themselves from oppression of foreigners and their collaborators to allow full religious freedom for their opponents.
When two factions of the same religion are a minority under opression by others one can see mutual love and tolerance as the best policy yet when one party gains control over whole country after battling the foreign occupiers and the others who colabarated with them it is logical to expect it to solidify it’s rule by eliminating or marginalizing all opposition political and religious.

]]> By: Ahavah http://kvetcher.net/2008/12/2204/today-is-the-day-one-for-celebrating-when-the-haredi-jews-killed-the-reform-jews/comment-page-2/#comment-9150 Ahavah Tue, 23 Dec 2008 22:38:52 +0000 http://kvetcher.net/?p=2204#comment-9150 Sarah: I'm afraid your sources for the Greek primacy argument are out of date. Analysis of the extant Hebrew documents by Nehemia Gordon (Dead Sea Scholar at Hebrew University, I believe, amoung other things) show that the language and grammatical structure, as well as "beautifications" of the text of Matthew etc, are Hebrew and not Greek. The extant Greek manuscripts are copies of Hebrew originals. Sarah:

I’m afraid your sources for the Greek primacy argument are out of date. Analysis of the extant Hebrew documents by Nehemia Gordon (Dead Sea Scholar at Hebrew University, I believe, amoung other things) show that the language and grammatical structure, as well as “beautifications” of the text of Matthew etc, are Hebrew and not Greek. The extant Greek manuscripts are copies of Hebrew originals.

]]> By: DK http://kvetcher.net/2008/12/2204/today-is-the-day-one-for-celebrating-when-the-haredi-jews-killed-the-reform-jews/comment-page-2/#comment-9149 DK Tue, 23 Dec 2008 22:19:45 +0000 http://kvetcher.net/?p=2204#comment-9149 Ariel's post. Ariel’s post.

]]> By: HalfSours http://kvetcher.net/2008/12/2204/today-is-the-day-one-for-celebrating-when-the-haredi-jews-killed-the-reform-jews/comment-page-1/#comment-9148 HalfSours Tue, 23 Dec 2008 22:15:49 +0000 http://kvetcher.net/?p=2204#comment-9148 DK, Who are you responding to? DK,

Who are you responding to?

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