Jewish Unease Towards Mass Immigration From Islamic Countries Spreads Left
January 5, 2009 Immigration, Jewish Community
For a long-time in the mainstream Jewish community, it seemed only Stephen Steinlight was brave enough to publicly declare it wasn’t in the Jewish community’s interest to support mass immigration from Islamic countries. (In fact, Steinlight went further, questioning the wisdom of accepting mass immigration from Mexico, because he is a fearless and principled man, who treasures his country and his community more than being popular).
Well…it’s over seven years later, and finally the hawkish Left is coming round.
Marty Peretz writes on TNR,
As it happens, jihadism has less deadly manifestations than murder. As the Ku Klux Klan had less deadly manifestations than lynching. This morning I watched a frightening episode in the public life of America. It was a demonstration by, say, 200 Muslim immigrants in Fort Lauderdale against the Israeli air strikes over Gaza. Now, the first amendment protects such demos, and I would not for a moment want to curb them. But I ask each of you to pay attention to the details of what was being shouted. Especially by the young women screaming, “Jews to the ovens.” No jihad in America, huh? Do we want such immigrants in our country? Well, John, do we?
Most Jews on the social Left will continue to denounce our concerns as “fascist” and “racist” and will continue to give space-cadet reasons why we shouldn’t be concerned AT ALL about little inconveniences like terrorism, harassment, and a loss of power from say, an additional ten million religious Muslims immigrating to the U.S.
But they aren’t who we need to convince. We need to convince the likes of Rabbi Yoffie, The Forward, Zionists who should really, really know better, and the AJC. And getting a nod from a TNR macher is a solid step in the right direction.
As for the Muslim immigrant masses themselves, well…they’ll always have Paris.
We really don’t need more of this shit.
Hat tip: Eli Valley
82 comments
I guess part of being a Muslim involves losing any sense of irony. The same person screaming “Nuke Israel” and “there is no Israel.” Also, “Occupation is a crime!” But Gaza hasn’t been occupied since 2005! And some ugly foreign chick with a bag on her head screaming that Jews had to get off the land! Hey– here’s a thought! Why doesn’t she get the hell off my land, and go the hell back to some Muslim country?
We really do need to stop immigration from Muslim countries– we’ve got way more than we need right now.
I got a better idea. Why doesn’t everyone without any American Indian ancestry get the heck off my continent?
I remember the 70s and Black Power and people screaming in my face about slavery and so on, how they were taken away from their homelands in chains (often put into chains by other tribes who sold them but that’s another story)… Really now, where do the American Indians go?
This sort of nonsense never ends…
My suggestion for help is to send swiming belts, as this is the only solution for the people of Gaza, get into the water and swim direction WEST………..
Mass immigration from the Third World is the worst idea to appear in the West since world war II. That now is completely clear to me. Up to only two years ago, I thought that immigration was, all in all, something positive for all parties involved. I don’t think so anymore.
It’s completely destructive. It creates in-group/out-group sentiments, encourages conflicts that used to be dormant or over and brings out the worst in people otherwise committed to positive and/or productive lives. We must learn that tolerance is a great virtue, and shows great character, but most humans are uncapable of it. They believe: my group, right or wrong, come Hell or high water.
What I’m struck with, though, is that the Palestine/Israel dispute is being fought over in the streets of Western nations. This is an intolerable insituation, a disgrace. Because, what’s being lost in this struggle is the interest of the Western nation in case. We can’t tolerate this shit in our streets. We must be non-parties and refrain from involvement. Jews, Christian Zionist, multiculti fanatics and muslim immigrants must learn to understand this. We can’t draw our own countries in quarrels which are not our own. Such a realisation shows true patriotism, a primary commitment to the country you live in — and its future interest.
Only anti-Americans, dhimmis or West-haters could disagree.
Suitepotato, is your argument that the U.S. is obligated to allow anyone in the world to immigrate here because American land was once occupied by American Indians? If you had your way, would you also require that *all* public and foreign policy of the U.S. gov follow the same criterion, such that it be in accord with the Indian perspective?
I followed a link to this article out of curiosity, and wanted to comment, though I’m not Jewish.
I am a native person, of Wampanoag ancestry. I mention this because I noticed the person who inferred that all those except native peoples should leave… that sort of comment always amuses me, as they are never of indigenous ancestry, and are always liars, and excusers of genocide and exploitation.
There is no one perspective shared by the peoples who are native to this nation, but I guarantee you that for the most part, we do not share suitepotato’s opinion, and we recognize it for what it is.. one of disrespect and a desire to use our people’s history for a corrupt agenda.
I wanted to comment, because what you write about has been apparent to any true student of history for a long time. But then again, the Jewish people in the US haven’t actually cared too much about the problems that mass immigration have brought about to the country at large. Sure, you are scared after watching a video where a Muslim woman espouses violent and unforgivable epithets, but you haven’t similarly cared when illegal aliens have displaced American citizens, who are black, brown and white from the workplace. Creating untold suffering and dire poverty. When the Agriprocessors scandal broke, the only comments from the Jewish community on the subject were expressions of concern about shortages of kosher meat products. After the Madoff scandal hit, there were snide jokes about how while it was unacceptable that he stole from his own people, it was to be expected and encouraged to steal from non-Jews. Frankly, my father, and my maternal grandfather both fought in WWII. If the wider American people were as selfish and self centered as your lot, they wouldn’t have stepped forward, disrupted their lives, put them at risk to save the lives of Jews and many others in Europe.
Why are you only American, when it’s your bottoms on the line? You certainly haven’t cared about your fellow Americans, who have been under assault… it’s seemed to me that you put your own private interests, and Israel first, and that America, and your fellow citizens are only to be considered when you want something from us
I think it’s hypocritical for there to be any discussion about the threat of Islamic immigration to the US, until the Jewish community starts speaking up demanding the full enforcement of US immigration laws, and that illegal aliens not be given amnesty. A message of solidarity to your fellow Americans, working poor and middle class, who should not be displaced and discriminated against in the workplace by the importation of cheap foreign labor. Until that occurs, you have no basis for claiming any right to say anything on the subject.
Great post. It’s encouraging to see Jews finally catch up with the rest of us on the immigration issue. Looks as if the debate is getting started. If they were honest with themselves, Jews would admit that a significant reason for their pro-immigration stance is that mass immigration from the Third World is a threat to White hegemony. In other words, mass non-white immigration is good for the Jews. Except that it isn’t, as some Jews are starting to realize. Better late than never, guys.
Jenny,
I want to thank you for presenting us with your perspective, and address some of your points:
“When the Agriprocessors scandal broke, the only comments from the Jewish community on the subject were expressions of concern about shortages of kosher meat products.”
I’m not holding you responsible to be versed in the intra-communal dialogue on agriprocessors. However, you should know that those concerned merely with how the scandal would effect kosher meat distribution, rather than the child labor crimes of the Rubashkins, were in the far minority. JTA.org (the Jewish answer to AP) The Jewish Daily Forward, and every other mainstream Jewish-American news source helped uncover the scandal themselves, and were horrified and chagrined by it. The Rubashkins were excoriated in most major Jewish media outlets. Much of that coverage is linked here on this site.
“After the Madoff scandal hit, there were snide jokes about how while it was unacceptable that he stole from his own people, it was to be expected and encouraged to steal from non-Jews.”
I don’t know who was making these comments, but my guess is that — unless you misinterpreted the conversation– they were not coming from Jews. The Jewish community regards Madoff as a pariah. Not because he stole from other Jews, but because he stole. And unthinkably worse, because he stole from charities. Many of those charities were Jewish charities. Could that have been the cause of confusion?
“I think it’s hypocritical for there to be any discussion about the threat of Islamic immigration to the US, until the Jewish community starts speaking up demanding the full enforcement of US immigration laws, and that illegal aliens not be given amnesty.”
That is what this post is about. Jews have historically been pro-immigration because we were an immigrant people ourselves. It would have been hypocritical for us to speak out against mass immigration of relatively benign groups, like the Hispanics, in the past. However, we (especially those of us who have lived in Israel amongst extremists) are in a unique sociological position to understand militant Islamism. It would be unpatriotic of us the continue to keep quiet as the American left indiscriminately, and naively, would welcome those that seek our destruction. Hispanic mass immigration is a different topic and of different concern altogether — one which the Jewish community may need to re-visit after re-examining Muslim immigration. The woman screaming in the video, and her ilk, are not the huddled masses of America’s past.
As DK, who in addition to being a brilliant writer, is also pursuing his masters degree in American history, has pointed out: Jewish-Americans are the only ethnic group which will vote against their own interests. Take for example this last election: many doubted that Obama would enjoy Jewish support in Florida because McCain has had a stronger track record of support for Israel. Yet, defying speculation, the percentage of Jewish voters hovered around 80% for Obama. We are a patriotic people. I wish mainstream America would quit looking at us cock-eyed. We haven’t warranted the distrust. However, our Semitic cousins (Arabs) perhaps do.
From the ADL:
“The findings in brief � Strongly anti-Semitic:
* 17% of Americans
* 35% of Hispanics
o 44% of foreign-born Hispanics
o 20% of Hispanic Americans born in U.S.
* 35% of African-Americans
* 3% of U.S. college and university students ”
http://www.adl.org/PresRele/ASUS_12/4109_12.htm
Still think that Hispanic immigration is great for the Jews?
Also don’t dismiss the effect of massive hispanic immigration just because the 20% strongly anti-semitic rate for hispanics born in the US isn’t isn’t much higher than the national rate.
That is because the 17% national rate includes hispanics as well, thus driving up that number considerably.
Comparing native born hispanics to the non-hispanic population is the correct comparison.
This equation gives the non-hispanic strong anti-semitism rate if you use the 13.3% hispanic proportion of the population from 2002″
.35*.133 +.867*X = .17, where x is the non-hispanic anti-semitism rate.
Solve for X and you get a 14% non-hispanic anti-semitism rate. This is *including* blacks. So even if you take the long view and just look at how things will be in the hispanic native born, they have a whopping 30% higher anti-semitism rate than the non-hispanic population.
Half Sours,
Thank you for responding so graciously. I am a lifelong liberal democrat, and care passionately about social justice and civil rights. I have been activist across the board on many issues, and have always been pro-Israel and passionately against anti-Semitism. I have read blog posts, and articles linked from the NY Times, Time, Newsweek on the subject, some of which have been on Jewish news sites and blogs. Perhaps I might misinterpret some things, but some of the “humor” seemed to infer that the greater wrong Madoff was guilty of was stealing from his own people, and that what he took from Gentiles was more understandable. It rankled me in the worst way.
The articles I read after the Agriprocessors scandal were similarly in Jewish news sites and blogs. I appreciate concern expressed about child labor, but in all honesty, meat packing plant jobs have always been good paying jobs that Americans held and still wish to. The trend to displace American citizens in those jobs has been country-wide, and it has been wrong. And when American citizens are denied work, it harms their children. To continue to justify displacing citizens with illegals in the workplace, is to justify the homelessness and privation of American citizen children. There is no way to excuse breaking the law, by hiding behind the children of illegal aliens.
The Rubishkins (sp?), through their lawyers were involved in other human smuggling, an article in the SF Bay Chronicle reported on the selling of visas to Chinese nationals who entered the US claiming to be going to work for the company, but who were never intended to. There was also rape, and the manufacture of illicit drugs going on at Agriprocessors. Not one article in the Jewish press and blogs ever addressed the fact that citizens should be hired to work in the factory. When confronted with those facts, the ADL, the owners of the factory and the ACLU, the LA RAZA people and other proponents of censoring American citizens would loudly scream “racist”, “xenophobia”, to apply a taint of hatred against citizens, black, brown and white merely for saying that not only should those jobs be given to citizens, but that those already unemployed and struggling citizens should be forced to subsidize the low wage standards being paid to illegal aliens.
It seems to me, that they seek to defame those citizens, to render them guilty of hatred and intolerance, for the same reasons the nazis did that to the Jews, to silence them, to excuse what was to come.
I can understand sympathy to immigrants, but we aren’t talking about immigrants, we’re talking about people who enter the US illegally. There has been no need to look for non-citizen workers in the US. I always believed that many Jews cared about civil rights, so it was a slap in the face to learn several years back, that the ADL and other similar groups not only were in denial, but refused to discuss the fact that citizens are suffering and not only are having their civil rights violated, but their human rights violated as well. I’ve actually telephoned the ADL and could not have an honest straight-forward discussion on the subject, because they refused to address the issue about how citizens were being harmed by being forced out of their jobs.
It’s not been easy to ignore the fact that dire poverty has been on the rise in the US over the past decade, homeless families are not invisible, we have tent cities all over the country, where poor citizen families with children are sleeping in the parking lots of abandoned factories. The MSM might not cover it, but we all see it when we are out in our communities or in the city. There are a few articles that trickle out about the difficulties poor citizens are struggling through, one about what is faced by mothers with children, in getting school buses to pick up their children to take them to schools in Minneapolis. But them MSM prefers to focus on claims that it is only illegal aliens that suffer, and that citizens who speak out against amnesty and the need to enforce our immigration laws, are somehow guilty of hatred and intolerance. \
The US Constitution gives citizens the right to petition their government to seek redress. That they are
the true owners of their government, yet just like Hitler and the nazis attempt to reduce Jews to a sub-human status, the democratic leadership, in the pockets of the corporate and foreign elite, prefers to denigrate poor citizens, so as to reduce them to a pariah status, sub-human and not deserving of being listened to.
I remember as a child, being taught the reason why it was important to remember “never again”, to learn to recognize when civil rights were denied, and know that it was a warning sign. I would hope that Jews would care as much about ensuring that what happened to Jews in the middle of the last century, not happen again, even when it was another group that was targeted. That we are all connected, and when you don’t speak out in defense of one group, you are serving to excuse something that will ultimately effect you in the end. The inspiration for those lessons was an elderly Jewish man who had a shoe repair shop in my neighborhood. I still remember going into his store for the first time with my mother, and as I watched him work on my father’s shoes, talking with him, asking him questions (he was very kind and friendly)
As a child would do. My father had been in the navy, so I was used to tattoos and there being a story that went with them so when I saw one on his arm, I asked him what it meant. My mother attempted to shush me up, but he told her it was alright, and he explained to me very carefully, that it wasn’t a tattoo that he had sought, but something that had been done to him during the war, by some very bad people.. That was all he said.
That evening, after my mother had told him what had happened, he took me aside and explained to me what the Nazis had done to Jewish people during the war, not in too great a detail, I was five years old, but enough to get me to understand and also that while the man hadn’t been angry, I shouldn’t ask about things like that so as not to hurt their feelings.
Today, the vast majority of Jews in the US have no experience of living in Israel, or as immigrants. They are American citizens, and as such should have a respect and connection to their fellow citizens, and to the importance of the full premise of civil rights and protections. Immigration laws weren’t implemented to discriminate, but to prevent the discrimination against citizens by corrupt employers, who would seek to avoid paying the wage standards a citizen needs to support themselves. Civil rights aren’t just for one group, or for those affluent enough to deserve them, but for all citizens. To erode the rights off less affluent citizens, leads to the erosion of all citizens.
Would you countenance Jews being pushed out of their jobs, and displaced, and then demeaned and demonized as “racist” or “xenophobic” for speaking up in their own defense against the discrimination against them? When the nazis demonized and demeaned the Jews, leading up to the Holocaust, blaming them for the economic woes in Germany, so as to excuse the treatment they were subjected to once Hitler came to power, they were not being altruistic, they were providing a cover and rationale to treat Jews as sub-human. When American citizens, who are black, brown and white, are demeaned and demonized as “racist” and “xenophobic” for daring to speak up in their own defense, against their displacement in the workplace, they are as much victims as Jews were. .. Please don’t take that as an offensive statement, because it’s not. When you take away a citizen’s right to work and support themselves, you are denying them their right to live, you are disrespecting them, devaluing them, and once that becomes the norm, it becomes easier to abuse them, in all ways.
I would think that the Jewish people would be cognizant of those similarities and have compassion, and be willing to honor the basic tenets of decency they wish to have applied to themselves. The desire to displace Americans in the workplace is founded in fascism. It’s not anything altruistic, intended to serve the purpose of lifting poor Hispanics out of poverty.. it’s actually a rationale to justify the status quo of countries like Mexico, and a desire to impose that same status quo here.
Illegal aliens, no matter what race, are not benign. There is no surplus of jobs in the US. We have had an increasingly declining pool of jobs here since the 1980s, when outsourcing began. NAFTA in the ’90s, which was co-written by the Mexican government, was premised in a claim that if millions of American jobs were sent to Mexico, it would lessen illegal aliens entering the US, because it would 1)create jobs in Mexico, 2) provide a middle class, a tax base in Mexico, upon which the government there could raise revenue, which would be used to increase opportunities and benefits to lift the poorest up. 3) raise wage
standards. Mexico is now the 14th wealthiest country in the world, it has zero national debt, a housing boom, a large and thriving middle class and many billion/millionaires. Despite those facts, the Mexican government, rather than honoring it’s promises, has encouraged it’s people to come to the US, take jobs illegally, demand welfare subsidies (to live off), so as to send their wages back to Mexico in remittances.
Mexicans are not starving in their home countries, they are not deserving of refuge status. They earn lower wages, but also have a dramatically lower cost of living. There is no need for them to come here. They have every ability to protest in Mexico and demand their government honor their commitment to them. To raise wage standards and improve opportunities. In the early 20th century, uneducated, American citizen laborers protested and won wage increases and workplace protections. Mexican citizens are no less capable of achieving the same in their home country. In fact, the president of the largest bank in Mexico, Banco de Mexico, stated in an article, that the Mexican government hopes to forestall having to enact reform, by pushing their poor into the US. That were Mexicans to stay in Mexico and protest the government, it would have to raise wages and increase opportunities. To justify illegal aliens coming here, is only insuring a perpetuation of there being no reforms in Mexico.
It also increases crime and corruption in the US, and the sort of horrible economic devastation that will lead to civil war, and/or the election of someone like a Hitler.
Citizen unemployment/underemployment is a serious problem, and it’s a long standing one. Again, there is no surplus of jobs, no “jobs Americans won’t do” or worker shortages. That truth has been proven by the world respected economist, Dr. George Borjas, the son of immigrants, at the Kennedy School of Government at Harvard University. Dr. Borjas has also proven that the massive wave of illegal aliens have driven down wages and encouraged further displacement of citizens in the workplace, because it has made it impossible for legitimate employers to compete. The massive amounts of illegals increases competition for low cost housing, which has caused rents and prices to increase dramatically.
I have never looked “cock-eyed” at Jewish people, I have always treated as I would treat anyone else. I am as concerned about Islamacists as you are, however, regarding this discussion, I would appreciate it if Jewish Americans would start showing us, their fellow American citizens the same respect and understanding they would like to be treated with, and start challenging the ADL and other Jewish organizations, Jewish employers, corporate and other interests on their demands and lobbying against securing our border, to demand they stop denigrating citizens, and start hiring them, rather than seeking to undermine and devalue our rights.
It’s kind of weird how the ADL piece I linked to broke out hispanics and blacks but not non-hispanic white levels of strong anti-semitism. From the data they gave I can mathematically figure out a “not black or hispanic” anti-semitism rate. I get an 11% anti-semitism rate. Since asians are only 4% of the US population, almost 95% of that “non-black and non-hispanic” population must be non-hispanic white.
So the non-hispanic white population has an incredibly low strong anti-semitism rate compared to hispanics and blacks, about half the rate of even native born hispanics.
So why on earth would anyone think it would be good or even neutral for the jews if whites keep becoming a smaller and smaller portion of the population through continued mass hispanic immigration (the largest component of immigration)?
Not one article in the Jewish press and blogs ever addressed the fact that citizens should be hired to work in the factory.
Wrong. And please see Failed Messiah for a whole list of links and articles on this subject. And note that Failed Messiah/Shmarya Rosenberg, is the only person to receive both a Heeb 100 award and a Forward 50 award, and received these awards because of his coverage of the Rubashkin/Agriprocessors scandal. Both hiring and also abusing illegal labor were part and parcel of their for contempt for the U.S. rule of law. There was public Jewish outrage for illegal hiring itself.
I would request that you do not insist on Nazi comparisons to either the Democratic party nor to the Jewish community, as these are ill-conceived, and no matter what similarities you perceive, the differences make such a comparison a poor choice, and people on this blog will not approve of such a gross violation of Godwin’s Law, and will not take you seriously. Criticisms can be made without such comparisons. You are on a moderate Jewish Lefty site, please respect Godwin’s Law here.
Look up Agriprocessors on google combine with JTA, and then with Forward.com, and with Failedmessiah.typepad.com.
Here’s some other links: http://www.jewlicious.com/2008.....ing-plant/
Here is the Heeb award: http://www.heebmagazine.com/10....._rosenberg
Note that I included the abuse of illegal workers to bolster the point that illegal labor is itself conducive to abuse. Not because I think illegal labor is in and of itself not a problem.
Jenny, to be clear, I also consider attempts to stifle legitimate criticism of affirmative action and mass immigration as “racist” or “hateful” as highly problematic, and agree that the ADL’s policies are often deleterious and harmful.
Jenny,
Understand that Jewish-Americans, are coming around to see the ADL as a joke. See Eli Valley’s comic portrayals of Abraham Foxman on Jewcy.com. Jewish intellectuals do not regard him, or his organization, highly. Regarding immigration; I recognize that illegal immigrants are not benign — although I don’t believe I’m of the mainstream on that one. I also make the distinction between Hispanic immigrants, and Muslim ones. Relative to Muslim ones, Hispanics, even the illegal ones, are benign.
Jews are out of touch with the economic assault on the middle class, because we are mostly urban people. and therefore far removed from the midwestern, and western market. Also, second and third generation Jews mostly have white-collar jobs, because of the cultural preface on education. That may not be politically correct to say, but you are making good points and they deserve good answers.
I’m not sure of the Web sites you have been reading to gauge Jewish reaction to Madoff and Agriprocessors. I can tell you as a Jewish journalist, that the mainstream stance has been one of disdain for both.
HalfSours, Hispanic immigrants are benign unless you’re someone that, say, has little choice but to put your kid in a school in which 50% of the student body is Hispanic immigrant or the children thereof. From far off, they can appear quite benign. But from a closer vantage, things get more complicated.
@ Jenny { 01.06.09 at 3:54 pm }
First off, you are probably lying about being a native.
But, even if you are not, your posts are riddled with factual inaccuracies – or maybe you are spreading disinformation?
“Mexico is now the 14th wealthiest country in the world, it has zero national debt, a housing boom, a large and thriving middle class and many billion/millionaires”
Utter non sense. That you actually believe this (?) is testimony to your fallacious perspective which rationalizes HATRED towards us persons of Mexican ethnicity. The only part of this statement that is true that Mexico is the 13 (or 14th) largest economy in the world – but comes in at number 56 on a per capita basis. What’s more, Latin America has the most extreme income distribution of any region on earth. This is a legacy of the 300+ years of virtual racial apartheid in the region – and in Mexico’s case due to the fact that Caucasians are only 9% of the population.
Ethnic groups: Indian-Spanish (mestizo) 60%, Indian 30%, Caucasian 9%, other 1%.
http://www.state.gov/r/pa/ei/bgn/35749.htm
Spanish were never more than 10% of Mexico’s people and mixed race (mestizo) and Indians were excluded from positions of power by the Spanish colonialist authorities.
“It also increases crime and corruption in the US, and the sort of horrible economic devastation that will lead to civil war, and/or the election of someone like a Hitler.”
If this is true, how do you explain the fact that crime rates have been FALLING across America even as immigration, legal and otherwise, has been skyrocketing?
More immigrants = Less Crime?
http://www.wjh.harvard.edu/soc.....nDoors.pdf
http://www.boston.com/news/glo.....ood_waves/
http://www.wjh.harvard.edu/soc.....nosNix.pdf
http://www.npr.org/templates/s.....Id=5365863
http://www.wjh.harvard.edu/soc/faculty/sampson
http://www.latimes.com/news/lo.....9164.story
In fact, the opposite is true; “Noncitizen men from Mexico between the ages of 18 and 40, which the study indicated were more likely to be in the country illegally, were eight times less likely to be in a “correctional setting,”
http://www.ppic.org/content/pu.....08KBCC.pdf
“Citizen unemployment/underemployment is a serious problem, and it’s a long standing one. Again, there is no surplus of jobs, no “jobs Americans won’t do” or worker shortages. That truth has been proven by the world respected economist, Dr. George Borjas, the son of immigrants, at the Kennedy School of Government at Harvard University. Dr. Borjas has also proven that the massive wave of illegal aliens have driven down wages and encouraged further displacement of citizens in the workplace, because it has made it impossible for legitimate employers to compete. The massive amounts of illegals increases competition for low cost housing, which has caused rents and prices to increase dramatically.”
Fact is, many “Cuban-Americans” (like Borjas) espouse white nationalist sentiments. These people claim they are “white Spaniards”.
That said; Borjas has “proven” nothing and is refuted conclusively here by UC Berkeley labor economist David Card;
David Card
Center of Labor Economics
University of California, Berkeley
http://elsa.berkeley.edu/econ/faculty/card_d.shtml
“If Mexicans were taller and whiter,” said University of California, Berkeley, professor David Card, “it would probably be a lot easier” for the public to accept the majority view of economists that the net effects of immigration, which is now predominantly Latino, are positive.”
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07.....mp;emc=rss
http://www.washingtonpost.com/.....86_pf.html
Arizona State University W.P. Carey School of Business
Published: December 17, 2008
http://knowledge.wpcarey.asu.e.....cleid=1721
“There’s a consensus among economists and policy analysts that immigrant labor benefits the economy on whole — and dramatically so.”
I would add;
Mexico = USA #2 Customer
http://www.census.gov/foreign-.....ml#exports
Mexico was the #2 source of imported oil for 2007
http://www.eia.doe.gov/pub/oil.....mport.html
Comptroller for the State of Texas; The Texan economy would have been almost $18 billion poorer in the last fiscal year without ILLEGAL immigrants who added to state coffers;
http://www.impactlab.com/2006/.....last-year/
Francine J. Lipman
Professor of Law
Courses Taught: Federal Income Taxation and Corporate Tax
http://www.chapman.edu/law/faculty/lipman.asp
“Americans believe that undocumented immigrants are exploiting the United States’ economy. The widespread belief is that illegal aliens cost more in government services than they contribute to the economy. This belief is undeniably false. [E]very empirical study of illegals’ economic impact demonstrates the opposite . . .: undocumenteds actually contribute more to public coffers in taxes than they cost in social services. Moreover, undocumented immigrants contribute to the U.S. economy through their investments and consumption of goods and services; filling of millions of essential worker positions resulting in subsidiary job creation, increased productivity and lower costs of goods and services; and unrequited contributions to Social Security, Medicare and unemployment insurance programs. Eighty-five percent of eminent economists surveyed have concluded that undocumented immigrants have had a positive (seventy-four percent) or neutral (eleven percent) impact on the U.S. economy”
http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/pa....._id=881584
This is what this hatred is REALLY about Jenny, don’t hide behind your claims of being a native!
http://www.thenation.com/doc/20080303/joyce
http://www.yaledailynews.com/articles/view/23784
“Hispanics” are 1/4 of ALL births in the USA
http://www.washingtonpost.com/.....03397.html
Not that the TRUTH will change your hatred for brown people – like me…
ADL produced video on the seething hatred now directed at brown people – like me…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iGgKBY61X0Y
Men’s median wages are the same as in 1973, see p60-235.pdf graph page 19. Women’s median wages are the same as men’s were in 1960.
Fertility has fallen from 1800 to now except during immigration restriction when it rose, the baby boom.
http://www.elderweb.com/home/node/2919
One way immigration causes eventually complete genetic replacement.
http://oldatlanticlighthouse.w.....migration/
http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.g.....obtype=pdf
” We investigated various cases of the island model with stochastic migration. If the population is infinite, the immigrants have a fixed gene frequency and the alleles are neutral, the gene frequency on the island converges to that of the immigrants.” Nagylaki.
I got to this site from the link at Vdare by Patrick Cleburne.
http://blog.vdare.com/archives.....as-whites/
Thanks for the David Card quote, Temoc. That is evidence of what I have long suspected, that Card is motivated more by some sort of ‘anti-racism’ crusade than by the search for economic truth. I’d suggest a counterfactual , that if the mass of new immigrants were blond haired blue eyed folks from Poland, the Ukraine and the like, mass legal and illegal immigration would have been halted long ago. It is only fear of being labeled ‘racist’ that prevents people from stating the obvious, mass immigration, particularly from the third world, brings zero benefits to the native-born population. Just look at the states which are crashing hardest now — e.g. California with its huge foreclosure rate, its failing schools and emergency rooms, its jam packed freeways, its near 9% unemployment — they are the states that have been swamped by immigrants (legal and illegal).
Nor do a few quotes from chamber of commerce type folks add up to evidence, and neither does a survey of ‘economists’ in general — if they are not labor economists, and particularly ones that specialize in immigration, their opinions are no better than the layman’s. Worse, probably, because they form a relatively well of segment of society that can insulate themselves from the effects of mass immigration, and mass movements of foreign economists to the US aren’t driving their wages down (well, actually they are, particularly for grad student TA’s, but that is another story).
Hey, check out what Third World immigrants, muslims ofcourse, were shouting in Utrecht, the Netherlands during some spontaneous “pro-Palestine” march.
http://player.nos.nl/index.php.....:5-462160/
The first 40 seconds revolve about some cameraman being attacked by muslim youths, but heard that from 0:43 sec? “Hamas, Hamas, Joden aan het Gas”, for non-Dutch speakers, this is what it means: “Hamas, Hamas, Jews to the gas[chambers]“. The second slogan was “Hitler! Hitler!”. I don’t have to translate that, I hope.
Anyway, this is what mass immigration from the Third World and endless understanding by white liberal elites did for the Netherlands: overt anti-Semtism in an anti-Dreyfussard-mode. It’s a complete and utter disgrace, that this is possible in a modern Western country.
This is what mass immigration does for a country.
(Note: I’m not Jewish and am neutral in the current Gaza-conflict.)
temoc,
I’m not surprised that someone whose ancestors committed genocide against the native peoples of what is now referred to as
“Latin” America, and who also created the trans-Atlantic slave trade, would attempt to disrespect me, while at the same
time attempt to exploit my people’s history. Your people slaughtered the indigenous peoples south of the border, and in fact
attempted to do the same thing to the indigenous peoples in the southwest of what is now referred to as the United States. Shooting and killing them
when they attempted to defend themselves and/or escape.
Here’s a history lesson for you and anyone else who cares to read it. “Mestizo” is a term that was invented by the Mexican government, as a smokescreen to deny the full implications of it’s history of genocide and theft. It also proves quite helpful when it spins it’s lies about it’s failures, by blaming everything on the United States.
Mexican history books are filled with revisionism that it finds more palatable than the facts. Mexico has long attempted to spin it’s past as, the Spanish arrived, and lived in “peace and justice” with the native peoples. When that was shot down as a transparent lie, they tried claiming that the native peoples just disappeared. That was laughable. Then they claimed that they all just intermarried with the native peoples, thus the catch-all “Mestizo” was born.
There were far too few of the indigenous remaining after the conquest to support the gross lie that there is enough indigenous ancestry intermingled with the descendents of the Spanish. While there might have been some intermingling, it was very limited in nature, and the very old world culture of Mexico is so racist, that those who would claim such heritage are treated with scorn.
I know Afro Latinos who have written and spoken about the racist treatment they are treated to, especially by the brownest Mexican. They also have written about how badly the pitifully few remaining Mayans are treated. One pointed me out to news articles reporting on how the population of a small Mayan village died in a mudslide, a few years back, because the local Mexican government refused to send aid to, because those native peoples are considered expendable. So kindly stop hyping “Mestizo” it’s a lie, and it’s also racist.
You are all descendents of the Spanish colonialists, and before you pretend that the only “Spanish” are those with white skin, kindly remember that American citizens have and do travel to Spain and Portugal, and know quite well that while there are those in those countries with very light skin, there are also majority, darker skinned populations.
The fact that Mexico’s economy has been in the toilet up until NAFTA, is because your culture is corrupt, and unwilling to work hard to actually achieve reform. Your people prefer dirty backdoor dealings, bribes and other similar practices. In Spanish culture, there is no such thing as compromise. Equal rights is not a concept that is understood because the culture there promotes the concept of getting one over on others. Lift yourself up, so you can oppress others.
When America won the lands that later became it’s southeast, it paid 15 million dollars to Mexico, and the Spanish that lived on those land grants we always hear about, were delighted, because they preferred to live in what would become the US, as opposed to the even then, corrupt country of Mexico.
I have friends who are of Mexican, Puerto Rican, Cuban and Portuguese ancestry, and they do NOT support amnesty, or identify with the corrupt Hispanic open borders/amnesty movement. They speak out because it presents a significant threat to their ability to earn a living, to their children’s futures.
Crime rates only fell slightly in the latter part of 2007, which coincides with the Bush administration finally beginning to get tough on illegal aliens, round ups, arrests and deportations. The drop was also roughly 5 to 6 thousand less violent crimes. Prior to that, the crime rate skyrocketed to 60 thousand more violent crimes in 2005, and more in 2006, and when you examine state by state numbers on the FBI’s site, those numbers were highest in states with the largest illegal alien populations. Arizona, New Mexico, Texas, California, Florida. As illegal aliens moved into smaller states in the midwest, northeast and across the south, their crime rates escalated dramatically. Those crimes also included robbery, rape, including against young children, DUI, drunk driving and identity theft. Quality of life eroded and tax burdens for social welfare, education, housing, health care costs all rose dramatically as well.
According to data in the US GAO and the IMF reports, Mexico IS the 14th wealthiest country in the world. The IMF also reports that Mexico has zero national debt, and in fact, in the International Herald Tribune, Mexico itself proudly has proclaimed that it is a far better bet for international investment, than the US, because
it, again, is the 14th wealthiest, zero national debt, large and thriving middle class, a housing boom (as opposed to the US’s “mortgage crisis”), many resources, corporate and
business interests, and it cites it’s many wealthy and powerful citizens. I’d suggest that rather than your citing the propaganda of the same interests whose agenda includes dismantling
US wage standards, including the minimum wage, workplace and environmental protections, you actually inform yourself based on reality. Though, I’m sure you are one of those same interests, who favors maintaining the poverty in Mexico and other such countries, so you can feed parasitically off it.
The US gdp doesn’t accurately reflect the actual earnings of the majority of American citizens, which is dramatically lower. I cite the facts about Mexico, because it’s current wealth is based
on NAFTA, which it still demands remain in effect, despite the fact that it’s government has avoided raising taxes on it’s large middle class, and wealthy citizens, as it promised to do. Mexico has every ability to raise wages now, and increase opportunity for it’s poorest. If you care so much for the poor of Mexico, why are you not activist in demanding that it’s government honor it’s promises
and obligations to it’s people?
Dr. Borjas is a world respected economist, nor is he a “nationalist” of any kind. He loves America, and he cares about citizen’s ability to work and earn a living wage. He’s spoken out demanding Mexico keep it’s promise to help it’s own people. There is nothing wrong with taking a stand against corruption, and Dr. Borjas has identified the corrupt intent of the US Chamber of Commerce and Business Roundtable, to create a slave labor economy in the US.
Here’s a video for those of you who want to pretend that the wave of illegal aliens who have been complicit with the corporate elites to displace American citizens, are benign. While Jamiel Shaw’s mother, served in Iraq, and his father worked and raised their two sons, doing what all citizens try to do. Provide a home and strive to give their children a life a little better than they had. They were succeeding. Young Jamiel Jr, was a football star, and the high school senior was being scouted by Stanford, for a scholarship. He was a wonderful student, and a role model to his little brother. One day, while walking home from school (three blocks from his house) Jamiel Jr. was shot to death by an illegal alien gang member, an illegal alien gang member who had tattooed his commitment to ethnically cleanse Los Angeles of black Americans:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-p5UZMH6jP4
The Shaw family attempted to get a law added to the next election, they gathered and submitted more than enough signatures (despite the fact that LA mayor, Antonio Villaragoisa used his power to systematically harass and persecute them, even sending police to demand their social security numbers, and attempt to seize and ban their petition taking) to get “Jamiel’s Law” on the ballot, something that would have forced police to check the immigration status of those arrested. But after they handed their petitions in, Villaragoisa’s appointees falsely claimed they were far short, apparently many of their petition sheets had disappeared.
The MSM has refused to report on Jamiel’s murder or the travesty of justice that has occured in Los Angeles.
This is wonderful to see. I hope over the coming years that Jews in the U.S., who have worked so tirelessly to open its borders to the world and flood it with millions of immigrants (while hypocritically excluding non-Jew immigrants from Israel), without regard to the interests of the U.S., will be the ones who bear the brunt of immigration’s consequences. We should expand immigration from Muslim countries, up to 10 million a year, and settle all such immigrants in West Palm Beach and NYC. Better yet, re-direct all illegal immigrants to the U.S. to Israel, thereby ensuring that the Rosenbergs of the world get such much-needed diversity. I’ll check back in a few decades and see if the insatiable lust of Jews for mass immigration has been satiated. Somehow I get the feeling that the above steps would do just that.
Somehow I get the feeling that you wouldn’t stop there.
Hey, Frank – do they provide you with a swastika, or do you have to bring your own?
That’s what the Great Famine did to you.
Jenny said: “There were far too few of the indigenous remaining after the conquest to support the gross lie that there is enough indigenous ancestry intermingled with the descendents of the Spanish. While there might have been some intermingling, it was very limited in nature….”
I think you’re over-estimating the numbers of indigenous peoples that the Spaniards killed when they colonized Mexico. I’m sure there was a lot of killing — especially of men, which is typical invading behaviour (think Genghis Khan) — but there is plenty of evidence of the mixing of European and native (and African) populations in Mexico.
For instance, one study done in Mexico City found that the average genetic admixture in the people who’s genes they analyzed broke down like this: 65% Native American, 30% European, and 5% West African.
They also found that the genetic contributions from Native American male (e.g. y-chromosomes) and female (e.g. mDNA) lineages differed — contributions from female lineages amounted to 90% while from the male lineages only 40%. That’s evidence for the greater killing of indigenous males as compared to females, I think.
Zoe, the study you cite was from a pool of 286 test subjects, and given the corporate funding provided to Penn State (Enron, ImClone, Genovo, Procter & Gamble, General Motors, Bechtel Group, Martin Marietta just to name a few, and they are all ardent supporters of eroding wages, outsourcing and exploitation of our visa programs there are serious concerns about what undue influence they applied in directing what was studied, researched, tested and the interpretations of the same are highly suspect) and the Conway Institute, University College Dublin, Dublin, Ireland have received huge grants not only from the EU (ardent promoters of globalization and mass immigration), but Wyeth Pharmaceuticals, who have been active in outsourcing manufacturing, but in combating regulation and testing of pharmaceuticals and compounds made in their factories in India, China and elsewhere).
The scientific journals have had articles from bio-ethicists, reporting on the problems of corporate multinationals pushing research universities (successfully) to promote their agenda.
There is no financial disclosure data for the Mexican facilities or the university in Toronto, available. Nor is there any details on who if anyone provided funding for the overall study, or a detailed breakdown of the test subjects. It does not meet the criteria for a legitimate test group.
Documents from the period of conquest, journals from priests, for example, have revealed that the genocide of the indigenous in what is now called “Latin America” included battles, but also from the enslavement, and working these peoples to death. Women also were worked to death, as were children mining gold and other similar things, in the fields, building roads, etc.. many also died after illnesses previously unknown to them were introduced to the indigenous populations.
It was the reason Spain created the trans-Atlantic slave trade.
Between 1519-1867, 8.5 million Africans were brought to Latin America, and most of them were worked to death. The same reason why the Afro-Latino population is so small in Latin American countries.
When you consider the features of Mexicans, they are only rarely that or even comparable to the features of the indigenous. Here’s a hint, brown skin does not make one indigenous to the Americas. Their bone structure, hair, all point to majority Hispanic ancestry. As an American of indigenous ancestry this stands out. I’ve seen very white Hispanic illegal aliens try to trot out the indigenous line and they don’t get very far with me.. they usually then try tossing racist epithets at me and others.. I’ve been called the “n” word, more times than I can remember by Hispanics, when they couldn’t get away with their fraud.
Sorry, but excuses and what you might “think” doesn’t ever reflect any consideration of the poverty suffered by American citizens. Please spend less time making excuses for illegals and those who rationalize them for profit motives, and educate yourselves on your fellow Americans economic realities, and engage in some discussion regarding that.
Golly. “Zionists who really should know better?” What does that even mean? I am a naturalized Canadian citizen born in and now living in Israel. I am not a supporter of unrestricted immigration to the US and even if I were, who cares? That woman in Florida who screamed to the pro-Israel counter-protesters that they should go back into the ovens is a cunt. But even cunts have the right to speak their minds. And I support her right, just as I support the right of white extremists and black supremacists to say whatever they like because I have faith that decent people everywhere will reject their idiotic filth.
As Americans, if you have issues with the nature and quality of your immigrants, talk to your government. You may also want to modify the business relationships you have with the many companies that rely on cheap illegal immigrant labor in order to function. Immigrants are needed in part in order to contribute to social security because American fertility rates are piss poor. Consequently, you may also want to have more/any children.
But be very careful with what you ask for. US citizens from certain countries may voice opinions that you are unhappy with, but once someone is an immigrant, you cannot discriminate against them based on their national origin or on the basis of an opinion you are uncomfortable with. While you may see a difference between “America is the great Satan” and “George Bush is a fucking idiot” others may find both statement equally offensive. It’s that whole slippery slope thing. I don;t have to draw it out for you do I?
Jeff, please explain your implication that I welcome a second Holocaust. I stated my wish that the people who most fervently support a bad policy– rather than those who oppose it or are indifferent to it– suffer the most from its adverse consequences. That seems to me to be universally accepted tenet of fairness. Try dealing in logic rather than the overplayed “anti-Semite!” card. That card has declining force in the new America. A more logical card to play would be “anti-American!”, aimed at Jews who helped flood the U.S. with immigrants, with no regard to its consequences.
Uhmmm, AFAIK, there have been more US Presidents of Irish descendence than of Jewish faith. Or are we up to yet another conspiracy theory?
Frank O’Leary, you are not being terribly helpful, just an fyi in the off chance that you are seeking a productive discussion.
ck wrote,
US citizens from certain countries may voice opinions that you are unhappy with, but once someone is an immigrant, you cannot discriminate against them based on their national origin or on the basis of an opinion you are uncomfortable with.
I am not for “discriminating against them.” We do, however, have a right to decide if we want more immigrants from this pool of labor.
You may also want to modify the business relationships you have with the many companies that rely on cheap illegal immigrant labor in order to function.
Damned straight.
From what I gather, the respondents and blog owner have no concern for poor and struggling citizens of the US. I shouldn’t be surprised.
So, what this democrat has decided is that I will start lobbying with my friends to demand that as we are in an economic crisis, that no more aid be sent to Israel, and no more aid to Mexico, or any other country. Laugh if you like, but given the willingness of the democratic majority in congress, and their willingness to side with the EU, I’m sure that cries demanding all aid to Israel be cut off will be more than willingly listened to.
India now has more billionaires than any country in the world, yet it demands 9 billion in foreign aid per year. No more.
Demand a moratorium on immigration, and a total crackdown on illegal aliens, including at the local level. I will join whatever local group (s) that are against illegal aliens/amnesty, and all that goes along with it. I will join marches and protests, contribute money to their causes.
I will demand that our troops be brought home from Iraq and Afghanistan, and that armed troops be placed at the southern border.
Again, I have supported Israel in the past, and I am against Antisemitism, and while I would never support that, I will not support Jewish civil rights issues, until I perceive Jewish citizens taking a principled stand in support of the civil rights of their fellow American citizens. If you help erode the civil rights of other Americans, then in reality, you are establishing a precedent whereby Jewish Americans have no civil rights. You can’t ignore the obligation for reciprocity.
My friends have started voting republican, and so will I, as long as that republican is against amnesty
The respondents on this blog teach about economic dependencies at college. Safe trade zones have always proved themselves to be the final nail in the coffin of any economy. The US (just as other industralised) does not only benefit from cheap immigrant labour but from cheap imports of resources and outsourcing unskilled labour to industrialising nations. Alternatively, we return to societies with a wide gap between a highly confined upper class and a vast lower class without an estalished middle class and have the lower class do unskilled labour for as little as $400 a month (the wage of a Chinese factory worker producing upscale designer handbags). Or we get regulated prices like in Communism. Or we’ll just throw another economic temper tantrum at the realisation that there are others out there willing to do the work we won’t do at hourly wages and work conditions we find inacceptable and thus slowly and steadily working towards their own wealth and financing of their own research as at hindsight we realise that mayhaps our complacency and (false) sense of entitlement is what got us into that situation in first place. I wonder how many of those that aim to ban illegal immigration and wages below tariff actually do shop at fairtrade supermarkets to lay the groundworks for an economically balanced global market that will not rely on trading workforce just as much as it does now.
should read: industrialised nations
Jenny wrote,
From what I gather, the respondents and blog owner have no concern for poor and struggling citizens of the US.
You see what you want to see. I suspect you will continue to do so.
I will demand that our troops be brought home from Iraq and Afghanistan, and that armed troops be placed at the southern border.
I support Iraq? I think Afghanistan is winnable? I support an open border with Mexico?
I will not support Jewish civil rights issues, until I perceive Jewish citizens taking a principled stand in support of the civil rights of their fellow American citizens.
What “civil rights” issues? Jews have no need for further civil rights advancements in this country, and haven’t for a very long time.
Again, I have supported Israel in the past
This isn’t about Israel. Not sure why you think I care what you think about Israel.
Jenny, you are ranting and raving at this point, moving from one point of wild assumption to another about my motives and others motives here.
VDARE wants your continued input. But I don’t.
My friends have started voting republican, and so will I, as long as that republican is against amnesty
You kid yourself. Look at European countries with few Jews. Why do they have immigration problems? Because of corporate interests. Who gave amnesty in the first place to illegal immigrants? The favorite Republican president of the 20th century, Ronald Reagan.
Don’t worry — they’ll make sure not to call it amnesty though. So you make sure to vote party-line.
Obviously some people just have no sense of humor or history or reality even.
The fact is I do have Micmac ancestry (I’m not going to get into a debate on spelling of the name, this is how my family spells it, done and over) and it has always been instructive to me.
While I have been alive and in the world, I have witnessed others with Native American ancestry obsessively make the observations about history, how our ancestors were somehow innocent cherubic people happy and smiling until mean nasty evil Europeans arrived.
No such thing was true. The Native American tribes were human and like all other primitive tribes of humans not only capable of war and murder upon each other, but quite happy to practice it just as much as any other humans ever have been in over 200,000 years of homo sapiens’ existence.
They were not innocent and to frame them as such is to patronize them, and deny them recognition of their basic humanity in all its forms, including those that modern sensibilities find repugnant. Condescension is the racism of the liberal. Idiocy is the embrace of it by the subject of it. I am no fool and will not allow either pure whites to tell me their post-modern gibberish view of my ancestors nor my addled fellows who live in self-deceived oblivion of reality.
Their destruction was a foregone conclusion as when two groups of humans meet, and one is far more advanced in the physical sciences, especially those military, it is inevitable that one will achieve supremacy over the other. The more disparate they are, the more the human tendency to relegate thought of the lesser to unimportance and thus to elimination.
Of course, this same assumption of supremacy and righteousness or at least right to action of any kind chosen, can also be found in the religious extremist mind. Such as that of Islamists.
Now then, had our ancestors a more advanced understanding of the world and footing to deal with it, they might have seen the colonists as a growing threat, and sought to co-opt them to a POV coincident with their own interests, causing dissension within the colonizers’ ranks, and buying themselves time to adapt to the ways of the newcomers.
This is too much to expect of relatively primitive humans however and if you were to ask for odds on it, well, you have better chance of winning Powerball.
It is not too much to expect of a more modern human society which has not only the ability to but actually recorded history, discussed it through a million points of view, and recorded all those discussions. Clearly there is a much greater chance of their understanding of the dynamics of humanity.
Islam is currently dominated by a supremacist movement within it, that holds great influence, and the masses of Muslims, as with for instance Reform Jews with respect to Orthodox Jews, hold that the more fundamentalist and extremist of their number are closer to being the truest expression of their religion, the archetype of their faith.
Unfortunately, that archetype of Islam embraces violence, intolerance, supremacy, bigotry, hatred, anger, and nihilism. It bears itself upon guilt and doubt within the more moderate Muslims and makes them think of themselves as not moderate but inauthentic in their practice. Human response to the inculcation of this is at worst the fanatic redoubling of effort.
As with Ba’al Teshuva who give in to the implied pressure and become fanatically Orthodox, these men who give in to the implied pressure of the Islamists become fanatically Islamist.
A BT puts on a hat and coat and prays a lot and withdraws from his former community to join his new one. A born-again Islamist sits listening to hate filled rhetoric from Mulsim preachers who encourage murder, including through suicide.
The former is no threat to America and Europe. The latter is.
What the Americans and Europeans need to do is what the Native Americans did not and could not be reasonably expected to: consider the risk of those coming to your land, which to exclude, which to allow under watch, and which to allow freely.
Failure to consider this will be at their peril, but ignorance of obvious peril is a forte of humanity. I rather expect the US and Europe in their usual arrogance, willful ignorance of others via condescension towards them and denial of their basic human nature, and of course their naivete towards their own nature to miss a true understanding of the risk, and let the slide into chaos continue.
The future looks much like the past, but there’s some comfort in that continuity, isn’t there?
“If this is true, how do you explain the fact that crime rates have been FALLING across America even as immigration, legal and otherwise, has been skyrocketing?”
What planet are you living on? In our country, crime by illegal immigrants makes up 60% of the crimes reported every week, according to the local crime reporter and police blotter. We have approximately 30,000 illegals in our county, which is only about 10% of the population. When 10% of the population is doing 60% of the crime, and most of those haven’t been in the US that long – it’s clear the crime rate would be far lower if the illegals were all deported. It has gotten so bad that they now routinely omit mentioning the names of the criminals on the newscasts because they are obviously hispanic – they’ll just report “a robbery” or “a rape at such-and-such a location” and give no details on the news or in the paper, unless the criminal happens to be white (THEN they give their name and mug shot). However, our local detention center has online information about all current detainees (http://jail.lfucg.com/services/offenders/) – all you have to do is randomly put in hispanic surnames and you get multiple hits for each one. The jail only holds so many people, you know.
It’s clear to local activists that they are the majority of prisoners. Unfortunately, some people think this shows discrimination instead of the simple fact that people living here illegally have no reason not to commit crimes. So they get deported, big deal. They’ll just come back – and they do. Only tight border control will stop the deluge, and we’re in no danger of getting that, because the bleeding heart liberals think it might offend somebody.
You’ll notice you can’t just show up on any other country’s soil and be welcomed in, nor are citizens in other countries expected to share their tax dollars with non-citizens. Try just showing up in Germany and demanding a job and benefits, or France, or Spain… We in the US are already down to 2-3 taxpayers per retired citizen or legal citizen welfare recipient – and SS is broke, not to mention how far over budget AFDC is. Just how many illegals who never paid or never will pay into the system am I supposed to support, too? It simply has to stop. We’re not made of money.
Frankly, we have no obligation to support non-citizens, and btw, just being born here does not make you a citizen – the law says that nowhere. Babies born to non-citizens are supposed to received consular certificates of birth from their homeland’s Embassy, not US birth certificates. It’s about time somebody started enforcing that rule, too.
On the economic front, the real reason we are in the mess we are in today is because, adjusted for inflation, wages have been stagnant or fallen all across the US since the globalization scam began in earnest in the late 70s to early 80s. We, as a Judeo-Christian nation, have passed laws in this country to define what we believe is safe, ethical, and fair working conditions – laws that ensure sabbaths and holidays are respected, laws limiting workdays to reasonable hours, laws prohibiting unsafe or polluted workplaces, laws prohibiting child labour, and so on. By doing business with companies who have purposefully positioned themselves to avoid these laws, we are subsidizing slave-labour working conditions in third world countries. I blogged last year about a factory in china that wal-mart had subcontracted to, for example, that was locking middle school aged kids into factories and making them work 18 hour days 7 days a week and paying them fifty cents an hour, a watchdog group found. Similar factories exist in Mexico and all over South America. We are guilty of enslaving and repressing these people because we let the Robber Barons get away with treating them like this, and we smile while we’re doing it because we think we got something cheap. Every cost they externalize we end up paying, one way or another. Until people realize this and stop participating, the working conditions and wages in third world nations will never rise. And as long as it’s more expedient for places like Mexico to export their poor, they’d much rather do that than reform their economy and pass laws that will piss off the Robber Barons, who are very much enjoying their Billions-with-a-B profits they’re making off the defacto slave labour.
And in order for any country’s economy to stay afloat, including ours, the majority of the citizens needs to be making living wages – enough income per hour and per day for the average family to afford an average house and average living expenses. As it is, for most areas of the country a living wage is 3 or 4 times minimum wage at the very least – but the living wage jobs have all gone overseas. Now, think about this for a minute – the jobs that are left here are retail, government, or “service” jobs (doing other people’s chores, basically). Employers hire illegal aliens specifically to exploit them, to pay them less than living wages – because since their clients aren’t themselves making living wages, they cannot afford to pay other people to do their chores, etc., unless that other person is making sub-living wages, too. It’s a nasty cycle. (The only way to restore a living wage economy is to refuse to purchase products made in third world nations that lack our wage and labour laws and don’t pay fair trade prices for materials and wages – and good luck with that.) Allowing illegals into this country only lowers our own average benefits and wages – just because sub-living wages looks great to them compared to back home, doesn’t make it RIGHT to exploit them here in that manner. And that’s what’s happening – Rubashkin was just the tip of the iceburg. The Robber Barons with factories and businesses still located in this country are just as willing to exploit slave labour as their transnational counterparts. Claiming this in any way benefits the poor third world citizens is simply intellectually dishonest. Displacing Americans for some nebulous benefit to some third world workers who might get paid on the books (doing what – mcdonalds?) does far more harm than good. If Americans get a full employment living wage economy, it will only be because we stop exploiting illegal immigrants and set up fair wage and labour practices in their own countries.
Until then, you can continue to expect to compete will 13 year olds making fifty cents an hour – and continue to lose your benefits and wages as they’re leveled down to the illegal’s level.
None of this has anything to do with hate – it has to do with the realities of economics and the tax base, which cannot grow as long as wages are being held down to sub-living wages for the vast majority of people. This nation can’t survive on wally-wort wages and benefits – a sufficient tax base only comes from living wages, which we will never have as long as we have an influx of illegals who are depressing wages – not to mention draining our tax dollars like a sieve getting free education and free medical care and other government benefits while contributing nothing or next to nothing to the system.
DK, I didn’t lay the blame for the illegal alien problem at the feet of Jewish Americans, I did
take exception to Jewish Americans and their organizations being cheerleaders for amnesty and open
borders, and for being indifferent to the serious harm it’s causing to their fellow American citizens.
I expected better, a bit of empathy for those citizens who are being discriminated against, merely because
they are Amerian citizens, having their civil and human rights violated.
I’m no fan of Ronald Reagan, nor of republicans in general, however, with the exception of one or two democrats
in congress, it’s been solely republicans who have caught wise to the serious harm being done to their constituents,
and other citizens across the country. Some have even woken up to the fact that the corporate interests they might
have served in the past, are truly selling this country out.
It’s been a first for me to find that I’ve felt completely abandoned by my elected democrat (they certainly are NOT democratic)
leaders, and felt that the only ones truly fighting on behalf of the issues that mean life or death, are actually republicans.
You are deliberately misinterpreting what I said, but I assume that is because you’ve refused to actually answer
my questions. All you’ve done is rationalize support for illegal aliens, as some sentimental quirk. I never said you support
maintaining the wars or open borders, I did say what I supported. I think if you dealt with the issue at hand, you’d be
far less emotional and reactionary.
Nor did I say that Jewish Americans needed or were looking for more civil rights, I was inferring that if you want
to maintain the civil rights you’ve been able to take for granted, you need to remember that when you treat the civil
rights of your fellow citizens so cavalierly, and turn a blind eye to theirs being eroded, you will find that yours
have eroded as well. Perhaps you need to remember the poem by Pastor Martin Niemöller, because you certainly aren’t speaking
out for your fellow American citizens, and when it’s your turn to be deprived of your rights, there won’t be anyone
left or willing to speak out for you..
Sarah, as you aren’t American, your POV is highly subject as far as I’m concerned. You don’t have a horse in this
race, so it’s all one big joke to you. The fact is, what you advocate isn’t any different than What Europeans did when they
rationalized fascism, communism, socialism and nazi-ism during the last century, and for the same reason. The old world
mindset is one of selfishness, and corruption. Perhaps wealthy Americans have become complacent, but the rest of us haven’t.
We’ve trusted our unworthy political leaders, that is true, but you can’t get away with attempting to blame the majority of
us for the corrupt practices of the corporate elite. From what I’ve read, they are being duped as well.
No, cheaper foreign labor does NOT benefit any economy, it only benefits the wealthiest. When you starve the citizenry,
drag down their wages and standard of living, you are cutting out the underpinnings of the economy. Spare me your
Marxist dogma. Countries should produce their own food, and manufacture goods. Trade is good and important, but the world
should not be reordered, to emulate the failed strategies of the Marxists. The sort of world you’d produce is an oppressive,
totalitarian state, because you do not respect the rights and dignity of others.
Suitepotato, sorry, but you can’t spin your way out of this. Where exactly did I make any claims that the indigenous peoples
were angels, etc.. ? Kindly cite where I made any such statement? I referenced the genocide and harm done to them, by the
ancestors of those who are now attempting to exploit the history of the native peoples, and claim indigenous status as
a blind to hide behind.
Are you attempting to claim that the indigenous were complicit in the crimes of the Spanish conquistadores? Oh, please do..
because I’d love to see that one attempted. You’re the sort of person who blames the rape victim, as somehow “asking for it”.
I can’t claim to know whether you truly are of Mi’kmaq heritage, but I have my doubts. Far from showing any respect for
that heritage, you are only waving it about like a label, treating it, and the very lives, long lost cheaply. So, if by chance
you have even the tiniest drop of Mi’kmaq blood, you lack any understanding or knowlege of those people. You are a sad, corrupt
person.. the sort who knows the price of everything, but the value of nothing. What you fail to realize is, that you are
exactly the sort of person who helps bring about corrupt government, but then is shocked when you find out that you are mired
in the nightmare you didn’t mind imposing on others. In short, suitepotato, you are a fool.
One thing I was taught, was that the native peoples of these lands, weren’t the losers. My people’s beliefs are that
you do not lose by showing kindness, sharing. They were harmed, that is true, but they never lost their nobility, nor compromised
their beliefs. I was also taught, that while those who came to these lands treated the native peoples badly, they all weren’t
bad. Over time, because they were inspired ulitmately to work for freedom and what was right, some of the founding fathers were actually
inspired by the Iroquois nation, which had the first, and oldest participatory democracy in the world.
That those who became the American people, loved their country and sought to fulfill the full potential of what was
given to them in the Constitution, they took it seriously. They actually were capable of admitting their mistakes and
striving to learn from those mistakes, and hopefully not repeat them. Unlike the people of those nations that hung on
to their old world mindsets, whether Europe, Latin America, India, China, etc.. those countries keep repeating the same mistakes
over and over again, expecting each time that they will somehow reach a different conclusion. They haven’t even actually achieved
any lasting success, for it was all given to them. They will lose it all as they lost it all in the past.
What I’ve noticed on this blog, confirms to me that too many of you haven’t taken the time to read and understand history, because too many of you exemplify complete ignorance of what is going on around you, and the warning signs that history points out to us all.
@ Jenny
The so called “Aztecs” called themselves MEXICAS.
As such, blaming persons of Mexican ethnicity for the crimes of the European Spanish is disingenuous.
The Spanish slaughtered tens of millions of us, transplanted their inquisition, introduced human slavery on our north American continent, burned our scribes at the stake, melted down 30 centuries of gold/silver artwork into bullion for shipment back to Spain – which is the most painful of all.
ALL UNDER THE WATCHFUL EYE OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH! (Catholics are among the biggest HATERS of Mexicans/Mexican-Americans of all – Bill O’Reilly, Sean Hannity, Pat Buchanan)
Obviously no living person is responsible for this and people are entitled to their opinion. However, as the late Daniel Patrick Moynihan said, they are not entitled to their own FACTS!
“There were far too few of the indigenous remaining after the conquest to support the gross lie that there is enough indigenous ancestry intermingled with the descendents of the Spanish. While there might have been some intermingling, it was very limited in nature, and the very old world culture of Mexico is so racist, that those who would claim such heritage are treated with scorn….You are all descendents of the Spanish colonialists, and before you pretend that the only “Spanish” are those with white skin, kindly remember that American citizens have and do travel to Spain and Portugal, and know quite well that while there are those in those countries with very light skin, there are also majority, darker skinned populations.”
So, according to you then, the US state dept is lying when they report contemporary Mexico’s ethnic groups as follows;
Ethnic groups: Indian-Spanish (mestizo) 60%, Indian 30%, Caucasian 9%, other 1%.
http://www.state.gov/r/pa/ei/bgn/35749.htm
Perhaps you are confusing Mexico demographics with that of Argentina?
Argentina Ethnic groups: European 97%, mostly of Spanish and Italian descent; Mestizo, Amerindian, or other nonwhite groups 3%.
http://www.state.gov/r/pa/ei/bgn/26516.htm
” Crime rates only fell slightly in the latter part of 2007, which coincides with the Bush administration finally beginning to get tough on illegal aliens, round ups, arrests and deportations…”
FBI-Preliminary Uniform Crime Report released June 9, 2008
Percent Change by Geographic Region
January-December 2007
Region Violent Crime
Total -1.4
Northeast -5.4
Midwest -1.7
South +0.7
West -1.7
http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/2007prelim/table2.htm
Violent crime is declining in SANCTUARY cities like Los Angeles, San Francisco, Denver, New York City, Dallas, San Antonio, Portland, Seattle, Minneapolis and Boston.
FBI-Preliminary Uniform Crime Report released June 9, 2008
http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/2007prelim/index.html
CALIFORNIA
Los Angeles
2006 30,526
2007 27,801
San Francisco
2006 6,533
2007 6,412
http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/2007prelim/table4al_ca.htm
COLORADO
Denver
2006 4,324
2007 3,550
http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/2007prelim/table4al_ca.htm
NEW YORK
New York City
2006 52,086
2007 50,453
http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/2007prelim/table4mt_oh.htm
TEXAS
Dallas
2006 15,058
2007 13,248
San Antonio
2006 7,977
2007 7,327
OREGON
Portland
2006 3,872
2007 3,701
WASHINGTON
Seattle
2006 4,152
2007 3,667
http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/2007prelim/table4ok_wi.htm
MASSACHUSETTS
Boston
2006 7,533
2007 6,838
MINNESOTA
Minneapolis
2006 6,374
2007 5,580
http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/2007prelim/table4il_mo.htm
No, their mere presence on US soil is NOT a crime.
“While an illegal alien is subject to deportation, that person’s ongoing presence in the United States in and of itself is not a crime, unless that person had been previously deported and regained illegal entry into this country.”
http://www.kscourts.org/Cases-...../96613.htm
Arizona Gov Napolitano veto reflects illegal immigration not a federal crime
http://whatiknow.freedombloggi.....ral-crime/
Former US Attorney for the southern district of New York, Rudy Giuliani;
“Glenn, being an illegal immigrant, the 400,000 were not prosecuted for crimes by the federal government, nor could they be. I was U.S. attorney in the southern district of New York. So believe me, I know this. In fact, when you throw an immigrant out of the country, it’s not a criminal proceeding. It’s a civil proceeding.”
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v.....ot-a-crime
U.S. Attorney Christopher Christie Serving the District of New Jersey;
“Being in this country without proper documentation is not a crime,” Christie told more than 60 residents and town officials. “The whole phrase of ‘illegal immigrant’ connotes that the person, by just being here, is committing a crime.”
Being undocumented may be a civil wrong, but it’s not a criminal act, Christie said.
“Don’t let people make you believe that that’s a crime that the U.S. Attorney’s Office should be doing something about,” he added of entering the country illegally. “It is not.”
http://www.nj.com/news/index.s.....cates.html
“According to data in the US GAO and the IMF reports, Mexico IS the 14th wealthiest country in the world… The US gdp doesn’t accurately reflect the actual earnings of the majority of American citizens, which is dramatically lower…”
This makes no sense.
Rank Order GDP using purchasing power parity (PPP) and exchange rates;
http://siteresources.worldbank.....DP_PPP.pdf
http://siteresources.worldbank.....es/GDP.pdf
A better measure as to a nations economic well being is per capita GDP, though that doesn’t account for income distribution disparities. (Though that can be measured using the Gini index)
http://siteresources.worldbank...../GNIPC.pdf
Surely you don’t mean that because India has a larger PPP GDP than Switzerland that India is wealthier than Switzerland?
This is what this angst is really about
Of U.S. Children Under 5, Nearly Half Are Minorities
http://www.washingtonpost.com/.....01841.html
Fox “News” Bill O’Reilly and John Gibson make that clear
http://mediamatters.org/items/200605170006
http://mediamatters.org/items/200605120006
In their quest to keep America white in the face of below replacement white birth rates, the demonization of “Hispanics” is often laced with outright lies.
Ann Coulter falsely claiming that a “majority of Hispanics voted in favor of” California’s Proposition 187
http://mediamatters.org/items/200508050003
Lou Dobbs caught lying by CBS 60 minutes
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PM1SNmRu2V8
Lou Dobbs = Definition of a Liar
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CJfM594RfwI
Lou Dobbs vs Lou Dobbs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=10X7BO6uvPo
“13 Americans are killed each day by illegals, and 12 are murdered”
The figure appears to have originated with U.S. Rep. Steve King (R-IA), who in May 2006 claimed in at least two speeches and a press release that illegal immigrants murder 12 Americans each day and kill 13 each day as a result of drunken driving accidents, for a total of 25 deaths per day attributable to illegal immigrants.
http://www.house.gov/apps/list....._bite.html
Rep. Steve King (R-IA) misleadingly “extrapolated” figures from an April 2005 Government Accountability Office (GAO) study to formulate the questionable statistic regarding the number of deaths caused by illegal immigrants, the GAO report itself makes no such claim. The study shows that “noncitizens convicted of crimes while in this country legally or illegally” comprise approximately 27 percent of the United States federal prison population.
http://www.gao.gov/new.items/d05337r.pdf
http://blogs.chron.com/bluebay.....lames.html
http://colorado.mediamatters.o.....0609270005
“30% percent of all Federal Prison inmates are illegal aliens”
A 2005 report by the nonpartisan General Accounting Office says that immigrants — both documented and undocumented —
constitute 27% of federal prisoners. But fewer than 13% of incarcerated people in America are in federal prisons, according to the U.S. Department of Justice. When both federal and state prisoners are counted, about 6% are non-citizens; that is actually less than expected, because documented and undocumented immigrants make up roughly 8% of adults residing in the U.S.
http://www.gao.gov/new.items/d05337r.pdf
http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/pub/pdf/pim07.pdf
http://www.gao.gov/new.items/d05646r.pdf
“A U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) program aimed at catching child predators arrested more than 6,000 “illegal aliens” in its first two years. The claim also asserts that 240,000 undocumented immigrants are sex offenders.”
http://www.house.gov/mccaul/pd.....Report.pdf
http://www.ice.gov/pi/news/ins.....5_Web1.htm
http://colorado.mediamatters.o.....0702160002
http://www.drdsk.com/articles.html#Illegals
http://www.drdsk.com/articles.html
Charlie Daniels repeats an internet based myth
http://www.charliedaniels.com/.....080307.htm
The anti-semitic website rense.com repeats it, this is why I KNOW rense.com cannot be taken seriously
http://www.rense.com/general75/inva.htm
Never mind it’s been debunked by the Los Angeles Times to which it was originally sourced
http://opinion.latimes.com/opi.....thbus.html
95% of the warrants issued for murder in Los Angeles are illegal aliens
83% of warrants for murder issued in Phoenix and 85% in Albuquerque are for illegal aliens.
There are over ten million people in L.A. County and 40% of all workers are working for cash and not paying taxes.
75% of those wanted by the law in Los Angeles, Phoenix and Albuquerque are illegal aliens.
29.4 % of all inmates in California detention centers and 40.1% in Arizona detention centers are Mexican national illegal aliens.
29% (630,000) illegal alien convicted felons fill our state and federal prisons.
53% of all reported burglaries in California, Nevada, Arizona and Texas are perpetrated by illegal aliens.
Over 50% of all gang members in Los Angeles are illegal aliens.
75% of all apprehended cars stolen in Texas, New Mexico, Arizona Nevada and California were stolen by illegal aliens or transport coyotes.
47% of cited/stopped drivers in California have no driver’s license, no insurance and no registration and of that 47%, 92% were illegals. The stats are similar in Arizona and New Mexico.
380,000 anchor babies were born in the U.S. in 2005 to illegal alien parents making 380,000 babies automatically American citizens with 97.2% of the costs incurred by the births being paid by the American taxpayer.
65% or all births in California are illegal Mexicans on Medi-Cal whose births are paid for by the taxpayer.
Over 300,000 illegal aliens in Los Angeles County are living in garages, while nearly 60% of HUD properties in the entire United States are lived in by illegal aliens.
34% of Arizona students in grades 1-12 are illegal aliens and 42% do not speak English.
In Los Angeles 5.1 million people speak English while 3.9 million speak Spanish.
43% of all food stamps are issued to illegal aliens.
41% of unemployment checks in the United States are to illegal aliens.
58% of all welfare payments in the United States are issued to illegal aliens.
Less than 2% of illegal aliens are picking crops but 41% are on welfare.
Over 70% of the U.S. annual population growth result from immigration. In California, Florida and New York it’s closer to 90%.
62% of all undocumented immigrants in the U.S. are working for cash, not paying taxes and are predominantly illegals working without a green card.
What is FAIR?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G06SoMl8eBk
It’s worth noting that the Western Region Representative of FAIR, until recently, was the openly neo-Nazi, Joe Turner. Turner was the founder and long-time leader of a group which developed a reputation for allowing neo-Nazis to participate in its rallies.
http://www.fairus.org/site/Pag....._mar07nl12
http://www.splcenter.org/blog/.....r-at-fair/
http://www.splcenter.org/intel.....jsp?aid=16
Some facts for you Jenny
Nebraska’s Immigrant population; Economic and fiscal impacts
http://www.unomaha.edu/ollas/E.....Report.pdf
The Economic Impacts of Immigrants in Arizona ; Udall Center for Studies in Public Policy
The University of Arizona
http://azeir.org/pdf/2007_07_i.....z_gans.pdf
“The absence of the estimated 1.4 million undocumented immigrants in Texas in fiscal 2005 would have been a loss to our gross state product of $17.7 billion. Undocumented immigrants produced $1.58 billion in state revenues, which exceeded the $1.16 billion in state services they received.”
http://www.cpa.state.tx.us/spe.....mented.pdf
Mexico received $24 billion in remittances in 2007
http://blogs.wsj.com/economics.....nces-drop/
Representing 1/6 of ONE PERCENT of US national income
http://siteresources.worldbank.....es/GDP.pdf
Meanwhile, as I already pointed out, Mexico is the #2 CUSTOMER of the US
http://www.census.gov/foreign-.....ml#exports
And #2 source of imported oil in 2007
http://www.eia.doe.gov/pub/oil.....mport.html
Surge in U.S. Hispanic Population Driven by Births, Not Immigration
http://online.wsj.com/article/.....lenews_wsj
With an average of 2.3 births per USA “Hispanic” female – not much higher than the 2.1 needed for replacement level
http://www.dallasnews.com/shar.....dcfdf.html
Thus, it’s not that “Hispanic” birth rates are too high – it’s that white birth rates are too low – suicidal in fact
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06.....mp;ei=5040
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wor.....768644.stm
Finally, here is a harbinger…
http://www.realclearpolitics.c.....roble.html
Cuauhtemoc (Temoc)
@ Ahavah
http://www.immigrationpolicy.o.....1-6-07.pdf
On Immigrants and Crime: An Open Letter to the Nation’s Policymakers
July 2, 2007
Dear Mr. President, Members of Congress, and Governors:
Immigration has enriched the economy and culture of the United States since the founding of the nation. Yet immigrants long have been scapegoats for many social problems that afflict the nation. As a result, myths and stereotypes about immigrants, rather than established facts, far too often serve as the basis for public perceptions that drive misguided immigration policies.
One of the most pervasive misperceptions about immigrants is that they are more likely to commit predatory crimes than are the native-born. Popular movies, television series, and a sensationalizing news media propagate the enduring image of immigrant communities permeated by crime and violence. But this widespread belief is simply wrong.
Numerous studies by independent researchers and government commissions over the past 100 years repeatedly and consistently have found that, in fact, immigrants are less likely to commit crimes or to be behind bars than are the native-born. This is true for the nation as a whole, as well as for cities with large immigrant populations such as Los Angeles, New York, Chicago, and Miami, and cities along the U.S.-Mexico border such as San Diego and El Paso.
That immigration does not automatically lead to higher crime rates is evident in the fact that crime rates have fallen in the United States at the same time immigration has increased. Since the early 1990s, immigration to the United States – both legal and undocumented has reached historic highs. Yet rates of violent crime and property crime have declined sharply over the same period, and the violent crime rate has reached historic lows. Moreover, among men age 18-39 (who comprise the vast majority of the prison population), the incarceration rate of the native-born is much higher than the incarceration rate of the foreign-born.
Signatories:
Richard D. Alba The University at Albany, State University of New York
Distinguished Professor of Sociology and Public Policy Sarah Babb Boston College
Associate Professor of Sociology Stanley R. Bailey University of California, Irvine
Assistant Professor of Sociology Susan Benesch Georgetown University Law Center
Fellow, Center for Applied Legal Studies Ann Benson Immigration Project, Washington Defender Association
Directing Attorney Irene Bloemraad University of California, Berkeley
Assistant Professor of Sociology Kitty Calavita University of California, Irvine
Professor of Criminology, Law and Society Patrick J. Carr Rutgers University
Assistant Professor of Sociology Miguel Ceballos University of Nebraska, Lincoln
Assistant Professor of Sociology and Ethnic Studies Jorge Chapa University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Professor of Sociology and Director, Center on Democracy in a Multiracial Society Leo R. Chávez University of California, Irvine
Professor of Anthropology Linda Chavez One Nation Indivisible
President David Cook-Martín Grinnell College
Assistant Professor of Sociology G. David Curry University of Missouri-St. Louis
Professor of Criminology & Criminal Justice Cynthia García Coll Brown University
Charles Pitt Robinson and John Palmer Barstow Professor of Education, Psychology and Pediatrics Wayne A. Cornelius University of California, San Diego
Theodore Gildred Distinguished Professor of Political Science and U.S.-Mexican Relations, and Director, Center for Comparative Immigration Studies
Mark E. Courtney University of Chicago
McCormick Tribune Professor of Social Service Administration, and Past Director, Chapin Hall Center for Children Pawan Dhingra Oberlin College
Associate Professor of Sociology and Comparative American Studies Cynthia Duarte Quinnipiac University
Assistant Professor of Sociology Finn Esbensen University of Missouri-St. Louis
E. Desmond Lee Chair in Youth Crime and Violence, and Professor of Criminology and Criminal Justice Walter A. Ewing Immigration Policy Center, American Immigration Law Foundation
Research Associate Joe R. Feagin Texas A&M University
Professor of Sociology and Past President, American Sociological Association Lynne R. Feldman University of Illinois College of Law
Adjunct Professor Katherine Fennelly University of Minnesota
Professor and Fesler-Lampert Chair in Urban and Regional Affairs Nancy Foner Hunter College and Graduate Center, City University of New York
Distinguished Professor of Sociology Bill Form Ohio State University
Professor Emeritus of Sociology Reanne Frank Ohio State University
Assistant Professor of Sociology
Brian Fry Indiana Wesleyan University
Associate Professor of Sociology Andrew J. Fuligni University of California, Los Angeles
Professor of Psychiatry and Behavioral Sciences Elizabeth Fussell Tulane University
Assistant Professor of Sociology Roberta Garner DePaul University
Professor and Chair of Sociology Tanya Golash-Boza University of Kansas
Assistant Professor of Sociology and American Studies William A. Gamson Boston College
Past President, American Sociological Association Herbert J Gans Columbia University
Robert S. Lynd Professor of Sociology, and Past President, American Sociological Association Paul S. Gray Boston College
Associate Professor of Sociology John Hagan Northwestern University
John D. MacArthur Professor of Sociology and Law; Senior Research Fellow, American Bar Foundation, and Editor of Annual Review of Law & Social Science Marilyn Halter Boston University
Professor of History and Director, American & New England Studies Program Research Associate, Institute on Culture, Religion and World Affairs Douglas Hartmann University of Minnesota
Associate Professor of Sociology Angela J. Hattery Wake Forest University
Zachary T. Smith Reynolds Associate Professor of Sociology and Women & Gender Studies Bruce D. Haynes University of California, Davis
Associate Professor of Sociology Bill Ong Hing University of California, Davis
Professor of Law Julie Horney The University at Albany, State University of New York
Dean and Professor, School of Criminal Justice Jennifer L. Hochschild Harvard University
Henry LaBarre Jayne Professor of Government, Professor of African and African American Studies, and Harvard College Professor Jennifer Holdaway, Ph.D. Social Science Research Council
Program Officer, International Migration Program Michael Hout University of California, Berkeley
Professor of Sociology and Demography C. Ronald Huff University of California, Irvine
Dean, School of Social Ecology, and Professor of Criminology, Law and Society Charles Jaret Georgia State University
Professor of Sociology Paul Jesilow University of California, Irvine
Associate Professor of Criminology, Law and Society Tomás R. Jiménez University of California, San Diego
Assistant Professor of Sociology Benjamin E. Johnson American Immigration Law Foundation
Executive Director Susanne Jonas University of California, Santa Cruz
Professor of Latin American and Latino Studies Arne L. Kalleberg University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill
Kenan Distinguished Professor of Sociology, and President-Elect, American Sociological Association Daniel Kanstroom Boston College Law School
Professor and Director of Human Rights Program Philip Kasinitz Hunter College and Graduate Center, City University of New York
Professor of Sociology, and Past President, Eastern Sociological Society Robert Kaufman Ohio State University
Professor of Sociology Nazli Kibria Boston University
Associate Professor of Sociology Caitlin Killian Drew University
Associate Professor of Sociology Dae Young Kim University of Maryland, College Park
Assistant Professor of Sociology and Asian American Studies Peter Kivisto Augustana College
Richard Swanson Professor of Social Thought and Chair of Sociology Fred Kniss Loyola University, Chicago
Professor and Chair of Sociology Daniel M. Kowalski
Editor-in-Chief, Bender’s Immigration Bulletin Lauren J. Krivo Ohio State University
Professor of Sociology Gary LaFree University of Maryland, College Park
Professor of Criminology and Criminal Justice Ralph W. Larkin John Jay College of Criminal Justice, City University of New York
Senior Research Associate Janet L. Lauritsen University of Missouri-St. Louis
Professor of Criminology & Criminal Justice Sylvia R. Lazos University of Nevada, Las Vegas, William S. Boyd School of Law
Justice Myron Leavitt Professor of Law Ivan Light University of California, Los Angeles
Professor of Sociology April Linton University of California, San Diego
Assistant Professor of Sociology Lyn H. Lofland University of California, Davis
Professor of Sociology Scott M. Lynch Princeton University
Associate Professor of Sociology Theo Majka University of Dayton
Professor of Sociology
Ramiro Martínez, Jr. Florida International University
Professor of Criminal Justice Helen B. Marrow Harvard University
Co-editor, The New Americans: A Guide to Immigration Since 1965 Douglas S. Massey Princeton University
Henry G. Bryant Professor of Sociology and Public Affairs; President, American Academy of Political and Social Science, and Past President, American Sociological Association, Monica McDermott Stanford University
Assistant Professor of Sociology Sara S. McLanahan Princeton University
William S. Tod Professor of Sociology and Public Affairs M. Isabel Medina Loyola University, New Orleans, College of Law
Ferris Family Professor of Law Cecilia Menjívar Arizona State University
Associate Professor of Sociology Vanessa Merton Pace University School of Law
Professor of Law and Faculty Supervisor, Immigration Justice Clinic, John Jay Legal Services, Inc. Jon’a Meyer Rutgers University
Associate Professor of Criminology Jody Miller University of Missouri-St. Louis
Associate Professor of Sociology Teresa A. Miller The University at Buffalo School of Law, State University of New York
Professor of Law Joya Misra University of Massachusetts
Associate Professor of Sociology and Public Policy John H. Mollenkopf City University of New York, Graduate Center
Distinguished Professor of Political Science and Sociology and Director of the Center for Urban Research Jeylan T. Mortimer University of Minnesota
Professor of Sociology Nancy A. Naples University of Connecticut
Professor of Sociology and Women’s Studies Katherine S. Newman Princeton University
Forbes ‘41 Professor of Sociology and Public Affairs Dina G. Okamoto University of California, Davis
Assistant Professor of Sociology Michael A. Olivas University of Houston Law Center
William B. Bates Distinguished Chair of Law, and Director, Institute of Higher Education Law and Governance D. Wayne Osgood The Pennsylvania State University
Professor, Crime, Law and Justice Program Nancy K. Ota Albany Law School
Professor of Law Sarah Paoletti University of Pennsylvania Law School
Clinical Supervisor and Lecturer, Transnational Legal Clinic Karen F. Parker University of Delaware
Associate Professor of Sociology and Criminal Justice Mary Pattillo Northwestern University
Professor and Chair of Sociology and African-American Studies Susan Pearce, PhD West Virginia University
Visiting Assistant Professor, Division of Sociology and Anthropology David N. Pellow University of California, San Diego
Professor of Ethnic Studies Michael P. Predmore Stanford University
Professor of Spanish Robert D. Putnam Harvard University
Malkin Professor of Public Policy, Kennedy School of Government Mary Romero Arizona State University
Professor of Sociology, Justice & Social Inquiry Lory D. Rosenberg Author, Immigration Law and Crimes
Former Appellate Immigration Judge, U.S. Board of Immigration Appeals; and Adjunct Professor, Washington College of Law Rubén G. Rumbaut University of California, Irvine
Professor of Sociology Robert J. Sampson Harvard University
Henry Ford II Professor and Chair of Sociology Mariano Sana Louisiana State University
Assistant Professor of Sociology Alex M. Saragoza University of California, Berkeley
Professor of Ethnic Studies Leslie Salzinger Boston College
Associate Professor of Sociology Joachim J. Savelsberg University of Minnesota
Professor of Sociology Armin Schwegler University of California, Irvine
Professor of Spanish Linguistics & Director of Global Cultures Denise Segura University of California, Santa Barbara
Professor of Sociology Carroll Seron University of California, Irvine
Professor of Criminology, Law & Society Andy Silverman University of Arizona, Rogers College of Law
Joseph M. Livermore Professor of Law and Director of Clinical Programs David A. Smith University of California, Irvine
Professor of Sociology and Co-Editor, Contemporary Sociology Robert Smith Baruch College and the Graduate Center, City University of New York
Associate Professor of Sociology, Immigration Studies and Public Affairs Deborah Smith University of Montana School of Law
Adjunct Professor Laurel Smith-Doerr Boston University
Assistant Professor of Sociology Dan R. Smulian Brooklyn Law School
Assistant Professor of Clinical Law
Janet P. Stamatel The University at Albany, State University of New York
Assistant Professor of Criminal Justice Norman H. Stamper, Ph.D.
Chief of Police, Seattle (Ret.), and Chief of Police, San Diego (Ret.) Judith Stepan-Norris University of California, Irvine
Professor of Sociology Carola Suárez-Orozco New York University
Chair and Professor of Applied Psychology; Co-Director of Immigration Studies, Steinhardt School of Culture, Education & Human Development, NYU Terrance J. Taylor University of Missouri-St. Louis
Associate Research Professor of Criminology and Criminal Justice Barrie Thorne University of California, Berkeley
Professor of Sociology and Professor and Chair of Gender & Women’s Studies Marta Tienda Princeton University
Professor of Sociology and Public Affairs, and Past President, Population Association of America Donald Tomaskovic-Devy University of Massachusetts
Professor and Chair of Sociology Enid Trucios-Haynes University of Louisville, Brandeis School of Law
Professor of Law Ruth N. López Turley University of Wisconsin, Madison
Assistant Professor of Sociology Jeffery T. Ulmer The Pennsylvania State University
Associate Professor of Sociology and Crime, Law, and Justice
Abel Valenzuela Jr. University of California, Los Angeles
Associate Professor of Urban Planning Edward Vargas Indiana University-Bloomington
Associate Instructor of Public and Environmental Affairs Alexander T. Vazsonyi Auburn University
Professor of Human Development and Family Studies Geoff Ward Northeastern University
Assistant Professor of Criminal Justice R. Stephen Warner University of Illinois at Chicago
Professor of Sociology Mary C. Waters Harvard University
M.E. Zukerman Professor of Sociology Deborah M. Weissman University of North Carolina School of Law
Professor of Law and Director of Clinical Programs Bruce Western Princeton University
Professor of Sociology Judith Wittner Loyola University, Chicago
Professor of Sociology Norman R. Yetman The University of Kansas
Emeritus Professor of American Studies & Sociology Min Zhou University of California, Los Angeles
Professor of Sociology & Asian American Studies Aristide R. Zolberg New School for Social Research
Walter Eberstadt Professor of Political Science Frank M. Afflitto, Ph.D. Kentucky Wesleyan College
Assistant Professor of Criminal Justice Alan Aja Brooklyn College (CUNY)
Professor of Puerto Rican & Latino Studies A. Aneesh University of Wisconsin
Assistant Professor of Sociology and Global Studies Judith Blau University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill
Professor María Estela Brisk Boston College
Professor, Lynch School of Education Natasha Cabrera University of Maryland
Professor Charissa S. L. Cheah, Ph.D. University of Maryland, Baltimore County
Assistant Professor of Psychology José A. Cobas, Ph.D. Arizona State University
Professor of Sociology, School of Social and Family Dynamics Julie A. Dowling, Ph.D. University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Assistant Professor of Latina/Latino Studies Program Westy A. Egmont, PhD Founder, Association of New Americans Dina Francesca Haynes New England School of Law
Professor
Matthew I. Hirsch Widener University School of Law
Adjunct Professor of Immigration Law Carol S. Huntsinger, Ph.D. College of Lake County
Professor of Psychology and Education Nikki Jones University of California
Assistant Professor of Sociology Christy Woodward Kaupert San Antonio College
Assistant Professor of Political Science Maria Kefalas Saint Joseph’s University, Associate Professor
Director, Institute for Violence Research and Prevention Gabriel Kuperminc, Ph.D. Georgia State University
Associate Professor of Psychology Thao Le, Ph.D., MPH Colorado State University
Assistant Professor of Human Development and Family Studies Peggy Levitt Wellesley College
Chair and Associate Professor of Sociology Ana S.Q. Liberato, Ph.D. University of Florida
Visiting Assistant Professor, Center for Women’s Studies and Gender Research Dr Patrick McGovern Princeton University
Visiting Fellow, Department of Sociology Janet S. Oh, Ph.D. California State University Northridge
Assistant Professor of Psychology Irma M. Olmedo University of Illinois Chicago
Associate Professor R.S. Oropesa Department of Sociology
Professor of Sociology & Demography Julia L. Perilla, Ph.D. Georgia State University
Associate Professor of Psychology Lesley Williams Reid Georgia State University
Associate Professor of Sociology Stephen T. Russell University of Arizona
Professor of Family Studies & Human Development
Norton School of Family & Consumer Sciences Traci Schlesinger, PhD DePaul University
Assistant Professor Lisa Patel Stevens, Ph.D. Boston College
Assistant Professor
Lotta professors there, Temoc. Why don’t you tell us why you feel the greater immigration levels–legal or illegal– the better? Why is that, Temoc?
Like Temoc even knows who these clowns are him(?)self.. Give me a break.
Anyone with eyes, brains, ears and/or other instruments of information digestion can see what immigration did to the West. We’re ruining ourselves. Mass immigration from the Third World is bad for a first world country in almost every way.
Nou doubt that immigrated Mexicans, Turks or Nigerians are enriched when they immigrate. They receiving country usually gets nothing out of it.
And I could care less about diversity. Nobody in history ever needed it. Nobody ever even came up with this stupid idea. We need less diversity. (The less the better, but, alas, that’s not possible.)
If you don’t like the US, the people living here or their way of life, the answer should be: goodbye and don’t come back — ever.
Why the hell did you even come?
Jenny, your blatant misconceptions of European history and economic policies speak for themselves. Too bad your whatever-ethnicity / nationality-you-feel prevents you from thinking outside the highly limited box you’ve trapped yourself in. Hope you’ll from now us spare us your narrow-minded and ignorant mishegoss.
If we could just junk the whole multicultural shit and end benefits for illegals, I don’t think immigration would be such a problem.
Switzerland pressures immigrants to conform and their Muslim population has assimilated to a much larger degree than anyplace else in Europe.
And with no benefits, we would only be getting productive people.
Mo, Switzerland is rather restrictive concerning immigration to begin with. One of my brothers, who lives in Switzerland, says it’s increasingly dependent on immigrants though as they lack skilled workers in many areas. The IT job he got, for instance, according to him required what an average middle schooler could do. With more open borders, Switzerland might be in the pits.
Sarah is right.
Switzerland doesn’t even admit other European nationalities. They are very restrictive, because they aren’t a bunch of fools like the rest of Europe. I admire the Swiss. Dull, but sane.
Also, the Swiss Republic is divided into highly autonomous cantons. These cantons sometimes set very high demands for immigrants, it’s almost impossible to assimilate to these demands for the average Third Worlder. Wise Third Worlders skip Switzerland and go to more gullible places like Sweden or Belgium. Can’t say I blame these people btw, I’d do the same.
Maciano, di dov’e Lei?
Sarah
I was in Zurich last like 7 or 8 years ago.
There was a noticable Arab minority and they were surprisingly well assimilated compared to their counterparts in Britain or Belgium.
Mo, Switzerland has never had colonies and the obligations / responsibilities that came with them. Switzerland hardly admits any foreign immigrants (or refugees for that matter; money and / or valuables have always been welcome though). There are lots of well-integrated, well-adjusted immigrants from all over the planet in all over Europe, but those that stick out like a sore thumb give the others a bad reputation. Same with religious / political extremists and criminals among Jews.
Holland.
You’re from Germany, I presume Fräulein?
(I sometimes visit this website, because it’s well written and it gives an interesting description of a community I’m not very familiar with.)
Ja, ik ben uit Duitsland.
Go to NYC and meet Kelsey; he’s fun. Or I’ll invite him over to Germany; I’m not far from Cologne.
Temoc -
That’s lovely propaganda piece you posted there, but in my county, we get the facts from the 911 and police records and even the pro-illegals activists here admit they commit most of the crimes. I can’t believe you think that pandering piece of fiction you posted has any scientific validity – it’s a PR piece and nothing else. Call every police chief in the major metropolitan areas and ask for yourself what percentage of crimes are committed by hispanics/illegals. Except for the areas of LA where the hispanics and african americans are busy gunning EACH OTHER down in the streets to ethnically cleanse their neighborhoods and achieve domination, in areas where the hispanic and african american populations are more or less balanced, hispanics have edged out african-american gang-bangers in crime stats. And, of course, they have also imported the reprehensible hispanic drug lord tactics for dealing with “problems” in their communities, such as kidnapping people’s children and selling them into slavery. If that’s the kind of society you want, then by all means propose a bill to eliminate all barriers and open the borders freely. You’ll get what you’re asking for, all right.
@Jenny { 01.11.09 at 1:01 pm}
“It does not meet the criteria for a legitimate test group.”
Jenny, there have been plenty of studies done on the genetic admixture of Mexicans and other peoples south of the U.S. border. It is quite clear that many have a mix of European and native genes (and some West African genes). I only quoted one study, but here are some more for you.
The common thread amongst all these studies is that there are regional differences in the amount of admixture of European, native, and West African genes in Mexico — more European in the north, more West African on the eastern coast, and more native in the central and southern areas.
“When you consider the features of Mexicans, they are only rarely that or even comparable to the features of the indigenous…. Their bone structure, hair….”
I gotta disagree with you on this one! I used to live in L.A. and mixed with lots of Mexicans and other people from Latin America (I was an avid, amateur salsa and Mexican folklorico dancer) and what always struck me was how the bone structure and hair of Mexicans was very Indio — even Asian-like (not surprisingly). High, high cheekbones and very straight black hair? You can’t tell me, for instance, that you don’t think these people look at least part Native American:
here and here and here and here and here
Look at these guys, too. Not 100% Indio, but definitely not Spanish either! Something in between.
I’m talking, of course, about working-class Mexicans. The middle- and upper-class Mexicans I got to know were, of course, much more European in appearance.
“Documents from the period of conquest, journals from priests, for example, have revealed that the genocide of the indigenous in what is now called “Latin America” included battles, but also from the enslavement, and working these peoples to death. Women also were worked to death, as were children mining gold and other similar things, in the fields, building roads, etc.. many also died after illnesses previously unknown to them were introduced to the indigenous populations.”
I’m sure this is all true. I don’t dispute it. Like I said in my original comment, I’m sure there was a lot — a LOT — of killing of natives by the Spanish conquistadors. There’s just not the genetic evidence to suggest that all or even most natives were killed in the process. There is a large amount of native admixture in the gene pool south of the border and that has to be accounted for.
“Sorry, but excuses and what you might “think” doesn’t ever reflect any consideration of the poverty suffered by American citizens. Please spend less time making excuses for illegals and those who rationalize them for profit motives, and educate yourselves on your fellow Americans economic realities, and engage in some discussion regarding that.”
I haven’t made any excuses for illegals or TPTB that take advantage of both American citizens and immigrants either legal or illegal. I am, in fact, staunchly against illegal immigration — and most legal immigration. I want borders shut ASAP! Don’t assume that just because I took issue with one part of your argument that I disagree with you entirely. Quite the opposite.
And, a minor note:
“…the study you cite was from a pool of 286 test subjects….”
No. The study tested 561 subjects.
Temoc – one more thing: I watched the NBC Nightly News last night. Did you? Because if you didn’t you should go to their webpage and read the report on the study that was just released which states that the biggest criminal threat in the United States is….drum roll, please….Mexican drug syndicates. You know, the guys who kill your wife and kids if you get on their bad sides, or sell your kids into slavery to pay off what you “owe” them? The ones everybody in the country except you seem to know about?
“So, what this democrat has decided is that I will start lobbying with my friends to demand that as we are in an economic crisis, that no more aid be sent to Israel, and no more aid to Mexico, or any other country.”
In the global context, the U.S. provides a lot of foreign aid, close to $38 billion of 35% of the total.
But what percentage of our GDP is foreign aid?
It is only about .33/one-third of a percent!
Another thing to consider, economists who study development note that a lot of U.S. $$$ spent on foreign aid goes to U.S based corporations, NGOs and other organizations just as a lot of foreign military aid is used to purchase American military equipment.
I’m not trying to imply that all foreign aid dollars are subcontracted to American businesses and NGOs but a lot of those dollars are. Cutting that aid would mean Americans losing those jobs.
That is what this post is about. Jews have historically been pro-immigration because we were an immigrant people ourselves. It would have been hypocritical for us to speak out against mass immigration of relatively benign groups, like the Hispanics, in the past.
When has hypocrisy ever gotten in the way of Jewry pursuing its interests? Ingroup morality permeates pretty much every part of Jewish activism vis-a-vis outgroups. This is textbook hypocrisy.
Not that I’m hostile to ingroup morality, mind you. Jewry is in many ways the quintessential model for my own White Nationalism. But I do take issue with those who deny reality (which is ostensibly something of a contradiction since deception (especially self-deception) is a core tactic of ingroup morality).
The woman screaming in the video, and her ilk, are not the huddled masses of America’s past.
Indeed; they want to gore your ox.
As DK, who in addition to being a brilliant writer, is also pursuing his masters degree in American history, has pointed out: Jewish-Americans are the only ethnic group which will vote against their own interests.
You have a link for this? Do you have an explanation for your tacit assertion that Americans of European descent will not vote against their interests? I ask because in my experience, Jews consistently “vote” (I find “the Jewish vote” to usually serve as a euphemism for Jewish political money) in their interests, and Euro-Americans consistently vote against theirs when they contradict the interests of outgroups.
Take for example this last election: many doubted that Obama would enjoy Jewish support in Florida because McCain has had a stronger track record of support for Israel. Yet, defying speculation, the percentage of Jewish voters hovered around 80% for Obama. We are a patriotic people. I wish mainstream America would quit looking at us cock-eyed. We haven’t warranted the distrust. However, our Semitic cousins (Arabs) perhaps do.
Support for Israel does not depend on politicians or elections, but on American Jewish political money and influence. Slavish support of Israel is 100% bipartisan, and not really optional.
I don’t see Jews as patriotic (toward America or western civilization) at all. Quite the contrary. In my experience Jewish loyalty to America trails and depends upon American conformity to Jewish interests. Could you elaborate?
(Jenny, you’ve been consistently misusing the word “infer”; infer is something listeners do, “imply” is the word you’re looking for.)
I want to point out that the ADL’s criteria for anti-Semitism are absurd, FYI. They do probably serve as a good proxy for ratios between groups, though.
I’d also like to point out that honesty on Jewish malfeasance in the “Jewish press” is not tantamount to general Jewish honesty concerning same; Jews control the NYT, inter alia, and honesty in those venues would indicate general Jewish honesty concerning Jewish malfeasance.
Understand that Jewish-Americans, are coming around to see the ADL as a joke. See Eli Valley’s comic portrayals of Abraham Foxman on Jewcy.com. Jewish intellectuals do not regard him, or his organization, highly.
Being highly regarded by Jews isn’t Foxman’s job. Whipping the goyim into submission is.
Somehow I get the feeling that you wouldn’t stop there.
Hey, Frank – do they provide you with a swastika, or do you have to bring your own?
Frank O’Leary, you are not being terribly helpful, just an fyi in the off chance that you are seeking a productive discussion.
Nice dodges. But I’d like an actual answer to his point; if Jews think immigration’s so great for America, why do they behave as if it’s anathema to Israel? Something in the water in Israel? Shouldn’t there be more outgroup immigration in Israel than there is in America, given Jewish attitudes toward it? Surely Jews have no problem enacting their preferences in Israel…
The explanation was that, as a historically immigrant group, Jews support (mass) immigration as a matter of consistency and principle. Well, Israelis are nothing if not a historically immigrant group, moreso than Jews in America. Why are Israeli borders not open to (we’ll stipulate non-Muslim) immigration from Africa and Asia? Is there an answer to this that doesn’t constitute obfuscation? Or will I just get a chorus of chirping crickets?
And I support her right, just as I support the right of white extremists and black supremacists to say whatever they like because I have faith that decent people everywhere will reject their idiotic filth.
They do, throughout the west. They don’t in Israel, though. In Israel the extremists and supremacists (as defined by yourself) are in charge. Sounds like a job for the famous Jewish conscience and activism. In fact, I don’t know how Jews find the time to pay attention to anything else, given how far Israel diverges from Jewish values. Don’t they have work to do? I know, it probably breaks Foxman’s heart that he’s here in America castigating gentiles, when he could be doing real work in Israel. But, he’s a big man so he can probably handle the disappointment, the sacrifice. Whattaguy.
Immigrants are needed in part in order to contribute to social security because American fertility rates are piss poor. Consequently, you may also want to have more/any children.
I get it – fix a problem by adding another one. Great advice.
US citizens from certain countries may voice opinions that you are unhappy with, but once someone is an immigrant, you cannot discriminate against them based on their national origin or on the basis of an opinion you are uncomfortable with.
Why not?
Look at European countries with few Jews. Why do they have immigration problems? Because of corporate interests. Who gave amnesty in the first place to illegal immigrants? The favorite Republican president of the 20th century, Ronald Reagan.
1) Europe’s problem with immigration isn’t of the same magnitude as America’s. Europe is waking up to immigration in a way that’s impossible to miss, and with a fraction of the foreign percentage that America (which continues to slumber, relatively speaking) does.
2) The fact that A and B both have problems with immigration does not require that the problems have the same source.
3) Problems can have multiple causes, each of which can be interrelated.
Why do legendary Jewish IQs seem to drop precipitously when Jews discuss issues like this? Do I really need to point out elementary-school-level logic to people with an average IQ of 110-115? Not that the quote is from a Jew, necessarily, but I do notice this phenomenon all the same.
Somehow I get the feeling that you wouldn’t stop there.
Hey, Frank – do they provide you with a swastika, or do you have to bring your own?
I glossed over the implications of this quote, but as I proofread my post it hit me – Jeff Eyges’ response is very instructive, and if you read between the lines it answers Frank O’Leary’s request to “please explain [his] implication that [Frank] welcomes a second Holocaust” before he ever made it.
Clearly, Jeff regards Frank’s call for mass non-Jewish immigration as somewhere between 6 and 9 (where the Jewish holocaust is a 10) on a 1-10 scale of “calling for the genocide of Jews.” This is the only way Jeff’s response makes sense.
I wonder how many Jews share Jeff’s outlook. Is mass immigration, which would clearly be genocide in Jeff’s book if performed by or upon Jews in Israel, not genocide when practiced by or upon gentiles? Is Jewish advocacy of open borders for America attempted genocide to Jews other than Jeff? (apologies if you aren’t Jewish Jeff, just assuming here) Inquiring minds want to know.
I also noted no invocations of “Godwin’s Law” vis-a-vis Jeff’s post. Did I miss something?
JohnP,
Since you are rebutting various posters on this site, it would be helpful if you would note who you are responding to before each quote.
You wrote,
I don’t see Jews as patriotic (toward America or western civilization) at all. Quite the contrary. In my experience Jewish loyalty to America trails and depends upon American conformity to Jewish interests.
If you are talking about Jewish “defense” groups, I think we will often agree. If you are talking about the masses of American Jewry, we will not usually agree.
The explanation was that, as a historically immigrant group, Jews support (mass) immigration as a matter of consistency and principle. Well, Israelis are nothing if not a historically immigrant group, moreso than Jews in America. Why are Israeli borders not open to (we’ll stipulate non-Muslim) immigration from Africa and Asia? Is there an answer to this that doesn’t constitute obfuscation?
Actually, we do agree on this part: Jews who believe de facto open borders are so important because of a “stranger” reference in the Torah should spend their energy making Israel open to mass immigration, not the U.S., since Israel is a Jewish country, not the U.S.
Jews control the NYT, inter alia, and honesty in those venues would indicate general Jewish honesty concerning Jewish malfeasance.
The NYT is a particularly bad choice. The NYT has one of the worst histories of any American periodical of advocating policies counter to Jewish communal interests. They back the interests of the social-liberal elites, Jewish or non-Jewish. And these interests are not, in fact, the same as those of the local or national Jewish community. Please see the destruction by Robert Moses of
the Bronx through the bulldozing through the heard of Tremont (working class Jewish neighborhood) in the 50s, as well as the destruction of Canarsie and Brownsville in the 60s, as well as support for the more liberal Cuomo over Koch in the 70s, and those are just a few local battles. The national and international issues become more blatant.
I want to point out that the ADL’s criteria for anti-Semitism are absurd, FYI.
FYI, no one on this site was disputing that.
Jenny:
Are you really a Wampanoag by language and culture? Or are you just aboriginal by blood? If the second is true, I refuse to treat you as a Native American even if you are full-blooded. That way, those Mexican illegals are all part-Native, some maybe even full-blooded. Moreover, the border they cross is an artificial European creation. If race is the criterion for legitimacy, then Mexican illegals would have more right here than our Founding Fathers!
You speak of your father and maternal grandfather having fought in Europe during WW Two. Well, they did so because America had no choice. Before the Pearl Harbor attack most Americans wanted no part of the war. Fair enough if your philosophy is self-interest first —- but then don’t come back and say that Europe owes your father and grandfather any thanks. If anything, Europeans in Europe owe thanks to the Japanese militarists, because they forced the US to get involved.
I agree with you that as things stand today, we need to get a handle on illegal entry. But I do so having the peace of mind of knowing that the majority of persons born here younger than five are non-white. Third World immigration, both legal and illegal,
has already done its job, and whites will be a numerical minority in a generation.
I firmly believe that countries created in the last few centuries as a result of white settlers killing aboriginals and/or usurping their lands have utterly no right to preserve their racial character. Oh yes, I know the half-truth excuse. “Whites built this country.” They built it with stolen land and, in the Africans’ case, stolen labor. Some scholars say that generations of unpaid labor by African slaves accumulated the capital needed to industrialize the United States. Industrialization in return enabled America to become a superpower — and outsourcing of manufacturing is now sapping it.
I do not hate whites. No, that is wrong, and many of them are sweet or noble persons. But I hold that western civilization has gotten where it on the backs of other races, and is beginning to end up as the Roman Empire did. During the Age of Exploration they gerrymandered the juiciest steaks of continents into new countries, flooded them with white immigration, and created racist immigration laws like the White Australia Policy to keep other races out.
So who or what now is truly illegitimate: the immigrants or the racial composition of the New White country itself? Only Europe has a moral right to keep a white majority.
It is precisely because massive Third World immigration has “de-whited” this stolen land that blacks, Natives, Mexican-Americans, Japanese-Americans and other pre-1965 minorities can now demand to be treated seriously.
You need to wake up and realize that if the US population today were still 95% white, African-Americans or Wampanoags could still be flicked aside and treated like trash. Because we now have dozens of millions of non-white voters, lawmakers and policymakers need to take us seriously. You manifest the attitudes of a white conservative in your patriotism. But it is only because Third World immigration has transformed America that whites today treat you as a fellow American. Sixty years ago they would have called you a savage, a dirty redskin, mocked you about doing a rain dance to amuse them. Very few even treated you with human respect in the old, mostly white society.
I notice that sometimes Native people diss other non-whites and kiss up to the whites. Before reservation casinoes began, Indians who were part-black were accepted as Natives. But once being Native meant money, one tribe rich in gambling revenue cancelled the citizenship of part-African members. But they allowed those of partly white blood to remain members, and share in the revenue!
Now, discrimination against any persons on the basis of bloodline is wrong. But this irony reveals an Uncle Tom mindset. This is equivalent to a rape victim arguing for her rapist, but insulting other women whom he raped.
During the Reconstruction period after the Civil War, new constitutional amendments outlawed slavery. One Native tribe owned black slaves and refused to give them up until the federal government pressured them to do so.
I certainly love and am loyal to the USA that we are part of TODAY. The America that has evolved out of two titanic historical forces — the Civil Rights revolution and massive Third World immigration. But America when Martin Luther King was a child was a racist, fascist, imperialist oppressor. Sure, it also had many good things —- but back then, only whites could enjoy them.
Nobody is saying that we should lie down and let the US become a free-for-all. But History goes in cycles, and has her own strange way of taking revenge. Egypt, Babylon, Rome…so many civilizations that rose to wealth and power collapsed. White Christendom is now walking that same path.
Moreover, the border they cross is an artificial European creation. – Vivek Golikeri
It was created, in part, by the Gadsden Purchase, an agreement between two different American republics. Is it that you regard the USA as a European country, and deny that Mexico had anything to do with that purchase?
I firmly believe that countries created in the last few centuries as a result of white settlers killing aboriginals and/or usurping their lands have utterly no right to preserve their racial character.
How about countries created by black settlers killing aboriginals and/or usurping their lands, like South Africa when the Bantus took it over? If they didn’t have the right to preserve their racial character, then what is your criticism of Anglo-Dutch South Africa? If Bantu South Africa did have the right to preserve its racial character, then you have a racial double standard.
I hold that western civilization has gotten where it on the backs of other races, and is beginning to end up as the Roman Empire did.
Is Western civilization unique in this way? Was white-perpetrated slavery unique? Have you even heard of African-perpetrated slavery against southern Europe?
But it is only because Third World immigration has transformed America that whites today treat you as a fellow American.
Large-scale immigration is a product of the 1965 immigration law. This was a product of the civil rights movement, not a cause.
Sixty years ago they would have called you a savage, a dirty redskin, mocked you about doing a rain dance to amuse them. Very few even treated you with human respect in the old, mostly white society.
You offer zero evidence for this, because there is none.
Now, discrimination against any persons on the basis of bloodline is wrong.
Great, so all US citizens have equal say in our immigration law, and if we decide to limit immigration, that is legitimate.
But America when Martin Luther King was a child was a racist, fascist, imperialist oppressor.
You regard Hoover’s and Roosevelt’s America to be fascist, imperialist, and oppressive. The USA during its most isolationist period was “imperialist”, and during the period we fought Germany, Japan, and Italy, we were “fascist”.
Sure, it also had many good things —- but back then, only whites could enjoy them.
Like historically black colleges?
But History goes in cycles, and has her own strange way of taking revenge.
No. Resentful, narcissistic people have their way of taking revenge.
Vivek wrote,
I do not hate whites
Vivek then wrote,
But I do so having the peace of mind of knowing that the majority of persons born here younger than five are non-white. Third World immigration, both legal and illegal, has already done its job, and whites will be a numerical minority in a generation.
Now, what if Vivek wrote,
I do not hate blacks
But then wrote,
But I do so having the peace of mind of knowing that the majority of persons born [in Cobble Hill, Brooklyn] younger than five are non-black. [Gentrification], both legal and illegal,
has already done its job, and blacks will be a numerical minority in a generation.
That would okay with Vivek and Vivek’s buddies, right? I mean, fair is fair!
Blode and DK’s angry reactions were actually “kinder and gentler,” to use the cliche the elder Bush used, than the brouhaha I expected. Yes, I fully expect that some will manifest outrage, accuse me of hypocrisy, hate, etc. “Narcissist” is a new insult. Interesting!
People can call me what the hell they please as long as the police protect me. But just look at what is happening in the general and real world. Can you honestly say that the claim that “western civilization is in the process of falling apart” has utterly no evidence to back it?
Nations and civilizations are not natural and eternal phenomena like the elements of Mendeleev’s Periodic Table and their properties. They are artificial creations resulting from historical and environmental forces. And just as previous history has shaped them into their present forms, future history can either abolish them or change them so much as to render them unrecognizable.
The western democracies may indeed have fought Hitler and Japan for their own reasons, and only a crazy person would have wanted to them to lose. But in their treatment of non-white races, the only difference between Nazi Germany on one hand, and Britain and America on the other, was one of degree rather than of essential nature.
Hoover harassed Martin Luther King and other dissidents. Our government supported tyrants like Batista and the Shah of Iran against their own people, which spawned hateful regimes like Castro and the Ayatollah as a backlash. From the viewpoint of racial minorities in the US or Third World peoples back then, yes— I do indeed say the country was fascist. Remember the Tuskeegee Project, or the mass lynching between the two world wars? Remember that Eskimoes and Aleuts were also in internment camps along with American-born Japanese?
Oh, sorry, I forgot. The moment you bring up past injustices, white apologists call them “mistakes.” Those past deeds were categorically not mistakes, but done when they were easy to get away with.
I never said that other races have not done the same nonsense. I was merely saying that the day of white Christendom is declining.
I llok forward to receiving more angry reactions, and rebutting them with cool-headed sarcasm.
When I spoke of the border being an artificial creation of western civilization, I never meant that the border as such was anything bad. Mexico in its present form is as much a creation of white domination of indigenous peoples as we are. What I meant was that before white men landed, Native peoples negotiated their own borders between tribes.
Actually, Mexico at the top level is also controlled by an elite of pure European blood ( mostly Spanish), and they are just as racist, only more sneakily and quietly so. One Mexican lady got pretty offended when I pointed out that Mexico has a racial caste system. “Oh, but there are many…..mixtures!” she said.
She got even more annoyed when I rebutted that those mixtures are due to lust, not sincere respect for intermarried couples. The English and Dutch brought their families to the New World, so they did not need Native or African slave women for sexual relief.
I never intended to imply that the Mexican government has any inherent right as such to dump its people here. If anything, Mexico’s quietly racist white elite is using illegal immigration as a safety valve to prevent the sewage hitting the fan at home.
Nor can you blame whites today on a personal basis. But western civilization has gotten where it has since 1492 on everyone else’s back, and like ancient Rome, has begun choking on its own gorging and vomit.
You didn’t really rebut anything. You actually avoided every one of my questions. You’ve shown that you don’t know what “fascist” means, that you know nothing of Iranian history except the just so story the left usually spouts (didn’t think to blame the Shah on the USSR? I wonder why not!), and that your pro-Hispanic leftism somehow allows you to pretend that Castro isn’t one of yours.
Hoover harassed Martin Luther King and other dissidents.
On the basis of claims that King’s organization included and had ties to many Communists. Do you believe those claims?
Now you are focussing on an emotional reaction you imagine I’m having, as if I don’t hear the same rhetoric you’re spouting every time a leftist opens her or his mouth. Let’s do a little literary analysis here: please identify the words or phrases that convey this tone. “It was created, in part, by the Gadsden Purchase, an agreement between two different American republics.” Hopping mad?
History goes in cycles, and has her own strange way of taking revenge.
Did I get that right? It’s not you that’s angry about the past, it’s history? Can you think why someone might regard that as arrogant? Narcissist is far from a new insult (though Lasch talks much more about the politics of the civilized minority in the chapter of that name The True and Only Heaven). It is a description of the modern way of thinking about history and society foisted upon us by the managerial-socialist class which controls our grade schools as much as our colleges and newspapers. The way of thinking says “History is a rough draft for the present; it consists of nothing but suffering inflicted by white rednecks.”
The claim that “western civilization is in the process of falling apart” has loads of evidence to back it. If that’s all you’re arguing we’re in complete agreement. The leftist establishment passed an immigration law in 1965 with the intention of creating a new people, people more pliable and friendly to leftist domination. You can claim it resulted from masses of black voters out seeking to protect “their Latino brethren”, but it’s factually incorrect. In fact it was an attempt by the therapeutic state to accelerate growing dependence upon it. Old-fashioned, civic methods of organizing communities were now to be called “redneck”. That is was the verdict of the 1964 election.
The election was won, of course, with a two-pronged attack on the very definition of conservatism. It had long been repeated by the interventionist left that the right was un-American for being too isolationistic. In 1964, the right became too bellicose. Your papers and schoolteachers bought it, and we continued on a massive expansion of government that coincided, yes, that caused a massive increase in urban strife.
Notice the pattern? Everything the left does to appease the non-Asian minorities causes them to become more angry, to increasingly consider success to constitute “acting white”, to refocus efforts from starting businesses and building autonomy … to begging for handouts. Notice that Malcolm X’s philosophy is forgotten, only his face remains a symbol. Most people today probably think he was just like King only a little less polite.
In the Forgotten Era – the period between Truman desegregating the armed forces in 1945 and Nixon creating quotas by executive order in 1970 – there were no mobs of Chicanos marching around the southwestern United States with signs that say “Hey asshole, this is Mexico!” Hispanic agitation for more immigration was caused by the establishment left as a way of settling scores with the lower-middle classes who resisted the New Deal, the global policeman role, and enforced immigration.
She got even more annoyed when I rebutted that those mixtures are due to lust, not sincere respect for intermarried couples.
Right, Because most of the time when people shtup, no lust is involved. Just sincere respect for their respective racial identities. No lust when it comes to sleeping together. Not like with the colonialists.
From the viewpoint of racial minorities in the US or Third World peoples back then, yes— I do indeed say the country was fascist.
Call it a Mengele camp for all I care. It’s just name calling. Do we seem 15 years old and new to racial-Marxist theory? Is this the young Republican club of community college? You’re not being interesting or shocking with that — just reproducing the tired cliches I hear all the time. Why waste your time? Tell us something interesting besides the usual racial-Marxist “fascist” name calling.
But western civilization has gotten where it has since 1492 on everyone else’s back, and like ancient Rome, has begun choking on its own gorging and vomit.
Rome got fat, lazy, and corrupt. So did the West. There are other issues why the west is falling besides not emulating the peaceful and loving civilizations like the angelic tribes of the Congo or the notoriously humanistic Aztecs.
Vivek Golikeri is discomforted by the fact that Darwinist principles of adaption through struggle apply to human and society conduct. The brutal and effective militancy of 16th century Spain resulted from hundreds of years of struggle against Islamic presence (which itself grew out of the collapse of Rome). The Spanish Catholics adopted and bettered the military tactics of the Moors just as the Ottomans bettered the military tactics of Constantinople. The Romans (and Muslims) did not have the need and therefore had no interest in circumventing the globe by ship. The Spanish however did so as to avoid the Muslim World. As soon as they took up the challenge, the primitive aboriginal societies in the Americas were doomed because once discovered, it was in the interest of Spain to conquer the New World whose inhabitants were not in a position to oppose. To talk about ’stolen land’ or suggest that the Spanish should not have acted as they did is to denial the reality of Darwinist principles of how humans or society behave. If on a costs versus benefit analysis it is in the interests of one society to use its military advantage against a far more primitive society it will do so. That is the way humans are and why they evolved as they did. One can no more ‘blame’ the Spanish for ‘evolving ‘ ocean going ships and guns then one can blame the Aztecs for not ‘evolving’ beyond arrows. Indeed the New World was the ‘prize’ evolution bestowed on the Spanish for coming up with ocean going ships.
I recently watched a documentary about how Grizzly Bears are moving south into areas which were exclusively Brown Bear territory. The Grizzlies are killing of the smaller Brown Bears so as not to have competition for scarce resources. Would you call the Grizzlies ‘land thieves’ or morally reprehensible oppressors who ‘fail to take on someone of their own size’? Would you say that Brown Bears have justice on their side and are deserving of Grizzly respect? Of course not. Grizzly Bears did not get to where they are today by not doing unto others what they would not want to have done to themselves! Likewise human society. The primitiveness of the American aboriginal primitiveness in comparison to the Spanish doomed them not ‘Western immorality’. One can no more blame the Spanish for being advanced as the Aztecs for being backward. Human society does not stand still as it is not in its interest to do so.
The English by contrast could withstand the Spanish and developed in time naval cannons and tactics superior to the Spanish which defeated them and allowed them in turn to deprive the Spanish from some of their American colonies. Indeed British India was the prize evolution bestowed on the English for ‘evolving’ an unbeatable navy.
Likewise Mexico lost territory to the US in the 1840’s because it could not adapt to military methods available to the US. Every country must act as it understands its own interest to be. That does not mean that we must be in a constant state of war because clearly one should not fight wars which one might lose or be too costly. The US must for itself decide whether immigration is of benefit or not and if not are there any steps which realistically have a chance of restricting immigration and whether the costs of taking those steps might outweigh the benefits of taking those steps. It is a benefit versus cost equation and has little to do with morality.
The US must for itself decide whether immigration is of benefit or not and if not are there any steps which realistically have a chance of restricting immigration and whether the costs of taking those steps might outweigh the benefits of taking those steps.
Isn’t it funny that this is considered extremist these days?
Reb Leibish says I’m “discomfited” by Darwinist principles, yet forgets that the same social Darwinism is now working to undo western civilization. Basically, western civilization will not really perish so much as morph into something totally different. In this, its predecessors have repeatedly done the same.
It goes back to Hegel’s dialectic, of a new counter-reality clashing with an established reality, and eventually synthesizing with it to produce a new reality. The Minoan civilization was invaded by Aryan tribes speaking Hellenic dialects, and the synthesis that emerged was Hellenic civilization.
Hellenic civilization was co-opted by the Roman Empire to produce Graeco-Roman civilization. Graeco-Roman civilization synthesized with Christianity and its Jewish roots to produce Medieval Christendom. The Renaissance saw, among other developments, European explorers discover and carve up the Earth.
By 1914 the whole Earth had been carved up by the White Race (Japan was one unique exception) and, still needing colonies, the powers had no choice but to go to global war to try to seize them. World War One created the Great Depression, that leading to WW Two. That led to the Cold War and the atomic era, but also to decolonization.
As the two latest white imperialist powers (USA and USSR) used the Earth as a chessboard and colored nations as chess pieces, they spent out their strength against each other. The Third World and non-whites inside white majority nations have begun rising much as tiny mammals arose when the dinosaurs perished.
Western civilization will synthesize with non-European races and cultures to produce a new global civilization, much as Europe’s “barbarian” tribes blended with the collapsing Roman Empire to become Christendom. The enemy of yesterday becomes the ally of today, and often even the in-law of tomorrow.
Vivek Golikeri, you make no mention of the advantages the British Empire brought to India as outlined in last months Atlantic
” The British, by contrast, brought tangible development, ports and railways, that created the basis for a modern state. More important, they brought the framework for parliamentary democracy that Indians, who already possessed indigenous traditions of heterodoxy and pluralism, were able to fit to their own needs. Indeed, the very Hindu pantheon, with its many gods rather than one, works toward the realization that competing truths are what enable freedom. Thus, the British, despite all their flaws, advanced an ideal of Indian greatness. (via India’s New Face – The Atlantic (April 2009).”
- You just give off an impression that you have a mighty large chip on your shoulder arising from India’s subjugation to Great Britain in the 19th century. You seem to find it hard to accept that you are descended from ‘half naked fakir’ losers rather than the winners ‘who rule the waves and never shall be slaves”. Your inferiority complex is irrational Caste System. Do you see ‘White Man’ as being above Brahmins?
The fact that ‘western civilization has gotten where it has since 1492 on everyone else’s back’ has little to do with artificial creations and emotive terms such as ‘White Race’, ‘Stolen Land’ and ‘Imperialism’. Indian subjugation has nothing to do with ‘British Evil’ triumping against ‘Indian Good’. It makes as much sense for a modern day Indian to feel inferior for the fact that his ancestors were shown to be far too primitive to effectively withstand British Empire (unlike the far smaller population of the 13 American colonies) as it makes sense for a modern day Englishman to take pride (or feel ‘racial guilt’) in the mere fact of his descent from the few and highly successful founders of the British Raj.
Dear Ron Leibish: I knew that lame excuse was coming up:”Oh, the British also brought many good things to you!” You conveniently leave out that only the colonial elite (both whites and native) got the benefit of them. Yet even that is not the point.
Look at the unique case of Japan. Japan not only escaped being colonized, but by copying European technology and methods, became a world power in her own right. Today, Japan is the only developed ( ie First World) nation of non-European heritage.
Had India retained her freedom and done what Japan did, she would have been ten times what Japan became, due to greater size, population and resources. But whereas India was diverse and disorganized, Japan was compact and homogenous. That has much to do with why India never had a Meiji-style period.
I never said it was “British evil against Indian good.” My ancestors had many injustices, especially against women and low castes. The barbaric practice of suttee, brought in by invading Tatars, was a standing shame. But it was British rule that reduced the masses to a blood-sucked shambles.
Lastly, you can accuse me of inferiority complexes, chip on my shoulder, whatever. Patronizing or demeaning someone whose opinions displease you is the lowest, most gutter form of rebuttal. But I know who I am, and what I believe. I have had almost thirty wonderful years in America, my adopted home. Many whites are dear friends to me; indeed, one is sleeping in my guest room right now.
I am firmly convinced that civilizations go in cycles, and the West is now in its early sunset. And all the personal attacks and snide remarks will not get me to concede to your views.
One more thing, Leibie baby. You seemed to imply that might is right in your “Darwinist principles” dissertation. In other words, History goes to the winners, so suck it up and live with it.
Well if that was your intention, you are in good company with that fiend who was the nemesis of your people —- Adolph Hitler. He was the consummate “survival of the fittest” guy, who believed that Nordic whites were the best evolved, and that Jews and non-whites were subhumans who needed to be removed.
Indeed, part of the reason Hitler was so determined to rid Germany of “Juden” was because he knew that, regardless of your superficial skin color, Ashkenazim are not completely white people in your genes.
So if you want to justify British and other white imperialism by saying winner takes all, that’s exactly the excuse old Adolph used to justify turning you and your kin into lampshades.
Don’t GO there, Leibie baby! See this same “Hitler” that your people have every right to be so angry about? That’s exactly where might-is-right amorality ultimately leads.
The “lampshades” thing is an urban legend. Anyone who has studied the Holocaust knows it is not true. The realities of the Holocaust were murder, starvation, torment, horrible medical experiments … and that is quite enough without ahistorical mumbo-jumbo clouding things up.
And with Golikeri’s final post, Godwin’s Law has been invoked, and the pro-immigration left has admitted defeat.
Even assuming the lampshades part is an “urban legend,” you missed the whole point. My point was that justifying success or victory on a raw “might is right” basis, taken to its logical extreme, leads to things as horrible as Hitler, Genghis Khan, or whatever.
From the time you take the attitude “I won, so that makes me right,” you might as well tear up the Constitution and let jungle law reign. Far from the “pro-immigration left” admitting defeat, I have only proven my point. Hitler was the antithesis of the West in its positive side, but the apotheosis of its darker side.
He repudiated due process of law, respect for life, but enthroned racism and chauvinism. If people can throw even the pretense of moral justification out and feel justified merely on a might-is-right basis, that shows that the basic values of western or ANY civilization have been tossed out.
And for your information, Blode322, I DO approve of fine-tuning Muslim eligibility to immigrate to the USA. Not banning it outright, but distinguishing between moderate and fundamentalist varieties.
Muslims like Sadat or an modernized Turk? No problem. But radical, fundamentalist Muslims? They shouldn’t even be allowed to visit as tourists. In addition to the fact that they might be plotting something, their ideas and ways are so antithetical to America’s that it creates problems.
No, I agree with the right-wing about keeping terror-supporters out. My only disagreement —- which really ruffled rightist feathers —- was my statement that countries created by European usurpation have no moral right to keep out non-whites.
My only disagreement —- which really ruffled rightist feathers —- was my statement that countries created by European usurpation have no moral right to keep out non-whites.
And I have asked you how you justify your double standard. Japan was created by the usurpation of territory occupied by the Ainu, yet I don’t see you criticizing Japanese immigration policies. Turkey was created when the Seljuk Turks usurped territory held by other people.
You can create for me, if you want, a list of nations that you believe were not created by usurpation. Are those the only ones that have the right to keep out others? Or is usurpation okay as long as the usurpers and the victims are of the same approximate skin color?
What exactly does it mean to be a moderate member of a religion whose holy book says:
9:29. Fight against those who believe not in Allah, nor in the Last Day, nor forbid that which has been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger and those who acknowledge not the religion of truth (i.e. Islam) among the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians), until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.
The idea of separating moderate from fundamentalist Muslims is used to delegitimize efforts to restrict immigration into European countries, (whether or not leftists considers them to be the products of “European usurpation”). The Turks causing all the violence in Cologne aren’t necessarily devout. Who cares? Moderate Muslims are fully capable of beheading their spouses, sympathizing with Hitler, calling for the murder of Rushie, etc. If Europe keeps out self-described Muslim extremists, but not the Muzzammil Hassans, it’s not much good for Europe, is it?
Okay, I see how you can see it as a double standard. Japan is so crowded that I can’t see too many wanting to go there. Yet even extremely tribalist Japan has felt forced by economic and demographic needs to open a little. Japan did horrible things to other people between 1853 and 1945. But she burned up much of her bad karma due to the suffering at Hiroshima and Nagasaki, and the humiliation of defeat the great war brought her.
Read History and you’ll see that every civilization, however blessed, has gradually been either degraded or destroyed by the accumulated burden of its own wrong-doing. Atlantis and Sodom-Gomorrah were literally destroyed. The Roman Empire collapsed. Ancient Egypt was repeatedly conquered, and eventually lost its character. China and India deteriorated, and were overrun by foreign invaders.
I cannot justly ask you to accept my views, because they are mixed together with my religious beliefs. For example, I believe that persons who committed certain atrocities centuries ago sometimes can come back to suffer the same poetic justice. Hindu brahmins who mistreated untouchables might have reincarnated as blacks who suffered under Jim Crow. Or the souls of white soldiers who mistreated Cherokees on President Andrew Jackson’s Trail of Tears might have resided inside the bodies of US servicemen on the brutal Death March on Bataan.
Nations and populations also have collective karma even as individuals do. For example, the Hostage Crisis in the Tehran embassy can be seen as poetic justice from the Universe (you would speak of the Higher Power as a personal God) for the mistreatment of Japanese-Americans during the internment episode.
There is no double standard. India and China were once the envy of the world in Marco Polo’s time. Look how degraded they became by the times of the Opium Wars or the Bengal Famine. Blode, do you remember that Jewish ritual chant at a Passover seder: “frogs, blood, lice, and the killing of the first-born?”
THAT is what is happening today to western civilization and the race that has ruled the roost. You can laugh should you choose, but then consistency would demand that you equally ridicule the Christian belief about Jesus rising from the dead. After all, there’s no more way of absolutely proving that, either. Belief ultimately depends on conviction.
Vivek wrote,
I cannot justly ask you to accept my views, because they are mixed together with my religious beliefs. For example, I believe that persons who committed certain atrocities centuries ago sometimes can come back to suffer the same poetic justice. Hindu brahmins who mistreated untouchables might have reincarnated as blacks who suffered under Jim Crow. Or the souls of white soldiers who mistreated Cherokees on President Andrew Jackson’s Trail of Tears might have resided inside the bodies of US servicemen on the brutal Death March on Bataan.
Well, first of all, I appreciate you are being candid about your understanding of the universe, and it was also good of you to concede why one would perceive a double standard at the beginning of your latest post.
However, you are invoking religious beliefs that no one else shares on this blog, as most Kvetcher readers are either Jewish or Christian (and one prominent Jew-Bu — hi Jeff!), and that includes reincarnation as your justification for all sorts of present/future suffering.
WADR, you have entered an area that is outside of historical and political discussion.
Vivek, quite frankly, you are playing a racial-Marxist God.
VG –
I didn’t realize until now that religion had anything to do with our beliefs. I’m not going to laugh at religious beliefs I don’t share as long as they are sincerely held, and I don’t doubt your sincerity.
I don’t know what the future holds and I can only hope that the chaos and suffering of the past doesn’t have to repeated. I suspect I will live to see some interesting times.
DK, I am fully aware that my ideas are out-of-the-box for most on Kvetcher. But I write intelligently and respectfully, and as long as forum authorities don’t tell me to stop, will share my ideas.
Yes, I might indeed be “playing a racial-Marxist God” from the viewpoint of some. But so what? I have neither broken any laws, nor personally abused anyone, nor used objectionable language. The free expression of new or controversial ideas is central to US democracy. If I stand accused of making good use of the Bill of Rights, I am guilty as charged.
Stick around and read my posts. They might sounds like craziness to you, but it never hurts to look through a window into a different soul.
DK said I was “playing a racial-Marxist God.” No problem, but I’m glad he raised the Marxism issue. My attitude toward Marx and his ideas is exactly the same thing Marx himself did with Hegel. Neither repudiate his ideas, nor affirm them, but “turn him right-side up.”
I believe that Karl Marx was a prophet, subconsciously receiving his inspiration from the same Higher Power whose existed he denied. Due to the messenger rebelling against the Divine Source, the message got screwed up inside the messenger’s vision.
The truth is like a jigsaw puzzle, and all departments of human knowledge hold pieces of it. Truth is never available on a silver platter. Indeed, that is exactly the myth that traditional approach to religion is based on. Abdication of the responsibility of thought and inquiry by just believing whatever nonsense so-called revealed scripture tells you. Now, the scriptures of all major faiths contain much beauty and wisdom. Yet ultimately, a person knows nothing simply by being told.
I love reading (and reading about ) German philosophers and the German philosophical tradition itself. Germany is possibly to Christendom what India is to the East. No other Euro-Christian country has produced quite the same number of deep thinkers and profound ideas.
My ideas and beliefs about the coming downfall of western civilization, likewise, are rooted in the ideas of a more recent German philosopher, Oswald Spengler.
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