Deplorable
May 27, 2009 Israel, Liberalism
Look, I don’t usually get involved with the Israel thing — but how many times do American Jews tout that Israel is “the Middle East’s only democracy”?
For the record, in a democracy, you need a healthy measure of freedom of expression. That means allowing people to say things we don’t like. Not things that compromise specific military security, and not saying things that clearly endanger people’s lives, but never the less, the right to say really offensive things. Not handing them a platform. Not validating every stupid opinion as important. But they should not be legally punished simply for being offensive.
If you are a democracy, you should have the right to say that the earth is flat. Or that the earth revolves around the sun.
You should also be able to say that the Holocaust never happened, and you should be able to say that Israel has no right to exist.
Israel is apparently on track to ban the latter. Horrifically, Israel is seeking a one year prison term for offenders.
The JTA reports,
A bill that would require a one-year prison sentence for anyone speaking against Israel’s existence as a Jewish state passed a first reading.
The bill, proposed by Jewish Home Party lawmaker Zevulun Orlev, advanced Wednesday by a vote of 47-34, with one abstention. Knesset members had a heated discussion on the bill before and after the vote.
A Knesset committee will determine when and in what form it should come back to the entire body for a second and third reading.
The measure comes just days after a bill was proposed making it illegal to observe Israel Independence Day as a day of mourning.
Why? Why is this happening? Am I missing something? If this law is passed, is it really going to help Israel’s viability?
Update: Readers have correctly noted democracy only references the right to vote. So let me say this. Let us work together against groups like the ADL who want to limit our free speech through hate crimes legislation.
This isn’t Israel.
19 comments
there is no constitution in Israel and therefore no freedom of speech. A democracy does not need to have any civil freedoms techincally, all it needs is to allow free elections.
We, as Americans, CANNOT put our values on Israel as if they have the same laws because they just dont. You want to claim is not really a free country, you at least have an argument, but a democracy? They have free elections
Freely, that is a good point. But what good is a democracy without the freedoms of a liberal democracy? It’s just tyranny of the masses.
Look what the Greeks did to Socrates.
Good points, the two of you. I am not in favor of this law. It suppresses the voice of people like Mohammad (not the ‘prophet’, the commenter). But I ask you DK, is Canada not a true Democracy? And say what you will about the Netherlands, but I’m sure you’ll agree that for all its faults, it is a true democracy. We like freedom of speech in this country. It’s what makes us unique. And the best. But it isn’t what makes us a democracy.
The party proposing it is a transplanted russian far right party. They have also proposed other racist legislation and I think ethnic cleansing and transfer are part of their official party platform.
Wow. That is ridiculous. It’s such a defensive measure, and brings Israel’s flaws and vulnerabilities right into the limelight. I wish I could say I understand where the country is coming from, or to somehow defend its motives, but I cannot.
Look, I don’t usually get involved with the Israel thing….
Oh, here I’ve been running on about it for about a million paragraphs on your blog….
I agree that the law is bad (sure, it sucks if lots of people in Israel feel it doesn’t have a right to exist, but preventing them from saying it won’t change their mind – better to stick to the freest expression short of legalizing shouting “FIRE!” at the theater).
I just want to note that this sort of law is fairly commonplace outside the United States no matter how free, democratic, etc., the state is considered. Many states consider their creation to be a victory in a quite specific fight, and believe it is important to enshrine their own existence in law, custom, oath, etc. For example, openly clerical parties are banned in Turkey, monarchist parties are banned in France, fascist parties are banned in Portugal.
That’s not quite the same as simply banning someone for saying something, but if the officers of a party in one of these countries said the wrong thing, their organization could be outlawed. France prohibits “offensive criticism” of the President, if I’m not mistaken. Germany prohibits display of the Hakenkreuz for obvious reasons.
The dark side of this in America was John Adams’ Sedition Act; the lighter side is the Pledge of Allegiance, which is pretty defensive in its own way.
I’m not saying, go out and support the law, I’m just saying – let’s not think this is necessarily some sort of slippery slope to doom. Look at these lynchpins of American liberty:
1a. a written constitution with a bill of rights (lacked by Britain and Israel)
1b. a supreme court with the power of review (lacked by the UK)
2. separation of church and state (lacked by the UK and Denmark)
3. non-hereditary head of state (lacked by the UK, Denmark, Japan)
4. regular elections that can’t be postponed without constitutional amendment (lacked by the UK)
5. elected authorities below the national level that can’t be abolished by the central government (lacked by the UK, France, probably Italy, nearly any country without “Federal” in its name)
6. a century-long tradition of political exchange without civil war or extralegal regime change (lacked by everybody and his dog except the UK and her daughters).
So, anyway – ours is a good way to do things, but not the only way.
Leonard Fein had it right when he said Avigdor Lieberman is a Nakba — a catastrophe — for the State of Israel.
But re. “Democracy,” two generations have grown up in the West Bank without citizenship rights. That’s not how I would characterize a “Democracy.”
Since Lieberman came up, I’ll link to what Pipes has to say about him (echoed by Ilana Mercer). (I don’t like his most recent proposal on mourning either, BTW.)
But re. “Democracy,” two generations have grown up in the West Bank without citizenship rights. That’s not how I would characterize a “Democracy.”
Of course for the first 20 years the West Bankers were denied those rights by Jordan, not Israel. But yeah, it’s pretty inexcusable that Israel (of which I expect more than I expect of Jordan) has allowed the Palestinians to linger in citizenship limbo for an additional 40+ years.
Ethics aside, this is a rather interesting turn of events. They do realize that the Hareidim of whom they’re scared to death are (apart from Palestinians) the chief Israel’s-right-to-exist deniers? Is this part of the reasoning – so they can frighten them into submission? Or will the law not apply to Jews? Or will the government simply look the other way when they start talking trash about Israel, as it does when they beat up women and little girls for the horrific crime of not being tzniusdik enough?
Many (most?) Palestinians living in the West Bank hold one citizenship or another, whether it be Israeli or Jordanian. Since it is ‘disputed territory’ in the lexicon of the leftists, it is only fair that co-opting citizens should be a responsibility on both Israel and Jordan, and perhaps even the entity called Palestine at this point. I am confused as to why American Jewish leftists will only point the finger at Israel, when they’ve got a whole hand to point many fingers at several nations. It reminds me a bit of when Queen Noor of Jordan of all people got on CNN, and lambasted the Israelis for not allowing West Bankers into Israel for work.
In France it is illegal to name a pig Napoleon (although you can name it, mohammed)
To argue as to whether Israel (or any other sovereign nation state) has ‘a right to exist’ is as pointless as arguing whether God has a right to exist. Just as God would not be sovereign (and hence not the Almighty) if it required the consent and grant of a right by another body to exist, so a nation state (whether the USA or Lichtenstein) would not be sovereign (and hence not a nation state) if it required the consent and grant of a right to exist by another body. A states sovereignty over its territory is not dependent of legitimacy granted by those outside its territory. North Korea is sovereign because it has actual power over territory not because it has a right to that power.
A claim by a Hareidi that Israel has no right to exist is just as meaningless since no one (other than Hareidim themselves) is that deluded to believe that Hareidim have a legal right to decide that issue.
This debate is very interesting, in a theoretical sense, but really we have much larger issues to deal with. A recent survey in Israel indicated that more than 50% of young Israelis plan to try to immigrate to the United States if and when Iran gets a nuclear weapon.
Let’s look at this logically – Iran may or may not get a nuclear weapon, but there are a number of other muslim nations that are busy building nuclear bombs. North Korea has basically announced that they will sell nuclear technology to whatever nation will pay for that technology, and there are many muslim nations with the money to pay for it.
The younger people in Israel see which way the wind is blowing.
Now you can say that people in Israel have lived under the threat of genocide since the state’s founding in 1948. But the proliferation of nuclear weapons in the hands of muslims is something different.
This is something that the jews in America – none of the jews in America – have faced. And by that I mean the peace now jews here in America, the doves haven’t faced it. And the AIPAC hawks haven’t faced it either
We are heading for a massive massive wave of Israeli youth seeking to immigrate to the USA. This wave will certainly include the majority of the high IQ, highly educated scientists and symbolic analysts in Israel. (many of the ultra religious will decide to stay in Israel no matter how bleak the likely outcome )
I myself am a committed zionist with plenty of family living in Israel. But each of my family members has sort of admitted to me that the writing is on the wall –
So it is time for we jews in America to confront this and decide what we are going to do.
If two million Jewish Israelis ask for citizenship in the USA – what do we do? Do we as American Jews seek to bump the Israelis to the front of the line – ahead of the Koreans and Chinese that have been waiting 20 years to get in to the USA? I am open to that idea –
or do we loosen the whole US immigration system in order to get them in – if we do this then along with 2 million Israelis we probably get 10 or 20 million other people that we don’t really want here in the USA
Again, I say as a committed zionist that Israel’s days as the country we know are numbered. We are looking at an Israel with a much smaller jewish population, a jewish population that is made up of ultra religious folks who are more committed to living under the shadow of a mushroom clowd – Dare i say it – a jewish population with a a Masada complex.
This subject – the subject of millions of jews abandoning Israel out of fear for their lives – is truly the greatest taboo in our community – it really is too unpleasant for jews at any point on the political spectrum to contemplate – but it is coming and since this blog is the only place on the web where jews come together to push the limits, I think we should discuss it here (instead of discussing something small and basically irrelevant to the future or Israel)
Okay, Steve. Great points (except my blog is NOT the only place where people push the limits, but whatever).
You got it.
[...] writes, If two million Jewish Israelis ask for citizenship in the USA – what do we do? Do we as American [...]
Really, DK – tell homeland security again just how much freedom you have to say that the US should not exist or that the Civil War was wrong and states should be able to secede whenever they want. Seems I recall something about a building full of burning children and a woman shot on her front porch with her baby in her arms for daring to suggest the US government was not legitimate and exercising their second amendment right to form a state militia?
The US is NOT any better than Israel, we just sneak around to collect people’s names and identify them as “right wing potential terrorists” instead of doing it openly.
Half Sours wrote:
Many (most?) Palestinians living in the West Bank hold one citizenship or another, whether it be Israeli or Jordanian.
Are you saying that Palestinians living in the West Bank can hold, or do hold, Israeli citizenships, along with the right to vote? This simply isn’t true. Palestinians in the West Bank do not vote in Israeli elections.
I am confused as to why American Jewish leftists will only point the finger at Israel.
I don’t point the finger only at Israel. The whole region takes its share of the blame. But as a Jew, it’s only natural that I and other Jews will speak out when scuzzy shit is being perpetrated in the name of my religion. How does this remind you of Queen Noor though? She’s not a Jewish lefty. In fact, I would love it if she’d speak out when scuzzy shit is perpetrated in the name of her religion, whatever that might be.
Steve – I’m sorry to say that America is not going to allow millions of Jews/Israelis to start immigrating to the USA – nor will any European countries.
Anti-Jewish sentiment is on the rise in the USA for a number of reasons, and millions of Jews pouring in to the USA will only make the rising anti-Semitism in America even worse. Also, the American economy is in sharp decline and won’t be recovering for years, possibly even a decade or more (the USA is actually worse than flat broke – it is in debt so deep it’ll never get out if it). Thus, where do you expect the jobs/housing/food/medical care/furniture to come from for all these millions of new Jewish/Israeli immigrants to the USA? The answer is that you of course expect America’s native population (via being heavily taxed by the federal government) to provide these millions of new Jews/Israelis with full welfare benefits. This isn’t going to happen, especially in the increasingly chaotic, broken, poor, and anti-Semitic America.
blablabla
After the way Kahane was silenced I don’t give a crap about all those idiots whining about threats to Israeli democracy. It died a while ago.
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