Questions from Antisemitica
February 1, 2010 Holocaustism, Race
As most of you know, in Jewish culture and study, the power is in the question, not the answer.
Which of these questions do you consider the strongest? Which do you consider the weakest?
Perhaps I will weigh in later.
Antisemitica asks,
Why do we have academic institutions dedicated to the exploration of anti-Semitism, but not Europhobia; why are Jews resented, but not Eskimos; why is anti-Semitism socially unacceptable in the mainstream, but Europhobia encouraged; why the a priori assumption of Jewish innocence; why is ethnic and racial consciousness verboten among Whites, but acceptable in the Jewish community; why is a border fence a proper remedy for Israel, but not for the United States; why does the U.S. State Department fight anti-Semitism, but not far more prevelant racial prejudice against Whites?
70 comments
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A friend wrote in,
Antisemetica’s inquiries are reasonable, and deserve thoughtful answers. I’m all for eradicating a double standard, Europhobia, and the flagrant disregard of the sensibilities of the mainstream. Christmas, for example, has been hijacked by overly-PC secularists who can’t engage their own religion, so they must suppress the religious expression of others.
The problem is, my understanding of the militant White supremacist movement, is that instead of reinstating racial equality — and eradicating institutionalized racism where Whites are displaced from jobs in favor of minorities– they also seek to invert the current system in favor of Whites, for a differently inequitable system.
halfsours said: “The problem is, my understanding of the militant White supremacist movement, is that instead of reinstating racial equality — and eradicating institutionalized racism where Whites are displaced from jobs in favor of minorities– they also seek to invert the current system in favor of Whites, for a differently inequitable system.
Hey, halfsours. You’re talking about ideas that are mostly gone now.
Nowadays, most supporters of rights for Whites either want equal rights for EVERYbody or, if they are more “extremist”, they are for White nationalism or separatism, not supremacist notions. In other words, there aren’t really any White supremacists anymore; the “extremists” have become White nationalists or White separatists.
Antisemitica is far from reasonable in evoking the old pseudo-intellectual, pseudo-moderate line of reasoning that claims that you may not say anything bad about Jews compared with other nationalities or ethnities – not religions.
The premise of her question is void of reason and full of vague insinuations. Nobody keeps anybody from researching prejudices against certain groups. The treatment of Inuit has been subject of research as well as American-European relations have been (not only on the political level at that).
Antisemitica asserts her racist notions by making up claims and presenting them as facts though they don’t hold true.
The claim of an “a priori assumption of Jewish innocence” is perpetuated among racist circles but is far off what is actually going on in historical research. (No serious historian will claim e.g. there’s never been a Jewish criminal.) Yet, as anti-Semitic stereotypes and weird takes on race and ethnic superiority are the “accusations” held against Jews, there really is no point in considering them valid – those stereotypes are mindfodder of simpletons.
The more important question that comes to mind is how we should deal with that wannabe-educated & pseudo-reasonable brand of anti-Semitism. I’d say keep an eye on it but don’t engage in any discussions with such people as what to expect are false claims presented as facts, relativised stereotypes, flawed logics, poor dialects and the urge to validate one’s sweird little world – not reason.
Why do you give credence to schmucks like this–yes “Europhobia,” really thought provoking stuff. Here’s the thing. Just as Jews can take pride in their ethnicity, every European ethnic group can do the same. Note, “Ethnic Pride” as opposed to “racial pride.” Nobody objects on ethnic grounds to the St. Patrick’s Day parade–it’s the White Pride rallies that bother them.
“Europhobia encouraged–” a few years ago, you couldn’t turn on the TV without seeing somebody stepdancing. Did you see protestors outside of “My Big Fat Greek Wedding?” I grew up in Milwaukee, and we had Germanfest, Irishfest, Festa Italiana–you name it. We even had an annual event called Folk Fair. Americans love ethnic pride–it’s racism that raises hackles. hey, let’s take one of his profound questions and play with it: “Why are ‘white pride’ advocates despised, and not ‘Irish/Greek/Italian/Scottish/Polish….etc. pride advocates?”
This sort of Paneuropean identity as as stupid as Panafrican identity. The cultures on these continents are too diverse to claim some sort of common culture. And its pretty ahistorical, since for most of European history, those people themselves would have rejected an identity that linked them to people who they saw as pagans, heretic, enemies, Asians, whatever.
And hamaven yavin, we know what these guys mean by “European culture.” Guess what–Jews are part of European history, and European culture. So right off the bat, I can dismiss someone whose vision of Europe leaves out a people who’ve lived there longer than the Magyars, who also migrated from elsewhere, but are apparently European enough (and we even spoke Indo-European languages, which also puts us ahead of the Magyars, not to mention other Finno-Ugrics and Basques). This has nothing to do with “Europe,” because if it did, Jews would have to be included.
And this business about Israel’s security wall–on what planet does this schmuck live if the thinks people don’t object to it?
I’ll rant more tomorrow if I feel like it, but honestly Kelsey, why do you ever think these guys with their pretty shallow views of the world are worth giving a platform to? If you have something you want to say, say it. Do you think this guy’s simplistic whining “Waaah, waaah, why can’t I be a public racist like in the good old days!” is really adding something valuable to the discourse?
I am concerned, as I’m sure many of you are, that these jobs not simply go to high-skilled people who are already professionals or to white male construction workers.” (Fmr. Sec. of Labor Robert Reich, Jan. 7, 2009, on how the stimulus money should be spent.)
“I don’t know – not having been there and not seeing all the facts – what role race played in that, but I think it’s fair to say, number one, any of us would be pretty angry; number two that the Cambridge police acted stupidly in arresting somebody when there was already proof that they were in their own
home.” (Barack Hussein Obama, July 16, 2009, on the arrest of Harvard University racist Negro professor Henry Louis Gates.)
“Lord, in the memory of all the saints who from their labors rest, and in the joy of a new beginning, we ask you to help us work for that day when black will not be asked to get back, when brown can stick around, when yellow will be mellow, when the red man can get ahead, man, and when white will embrace what is right.” (Racist Negro Reverend Joseph Lowery, Jan. 20, 2009, at the inauguration of Obama.)
“Let’s be very honest about what this is about. This is not about bashing Democrats. It’s not about taxes. They have no idea what the Boston Tea party was about. They don’t know their history at all. It’s about hating a black man in the White House. This is racism straight up and is nothing but a bunch of
teabagging rednecks. There is no way around that.” (Marxist activist and lousy actress Janeane Garofalo on MSNBC’s “Countdown with Keith Olbermann”, Apr. 16, 2009, referring to Tea party attendees.)
“It’s horrifying to imagine kids being proud to be white.” (Newsweek, Sept. 14, 2009.)
“Waaah, waaah, why can’t I be a public racist like in the good old days!” is really adding something valuable to the discourse? (Jewdar, inane comment beneath Kvetcher post)
I will be supping with a very good Jewish friend this upcoming Saturday and will share with him your comments. I have very little doubt he will find them as repulsive and hateful as I do Jewdar & Sarah.
But sure, you go right on believing that you are the “tolerant” ones.
Repulsive and hateful? I’m sorry, to whom have I expressed hate? People of European descent? My father’s from Belgium. White people? I’m pretty white. So to whom exactly have I shown intolerance?
“This sort of Paneuropean identity as as stupid as Panafrican identity. ”
Panafrican identity is stupid? Tell me, Jewdar, the NAACP champions one particular ethnic group, or an entire race? Panafrican pride is utterly social acceptable for good reason; there are many African Americans who are mixed breeds of many African slave groups. Even those African-Americans who can trace their lineage still count themselves as part of the greater African-American community, for the most part. Who are you to deny white people, whether they be an ethnic mix, or not, the same right to celebrate their race. I’m sorry, but I can’t help thinking that making ethnic pride OK, but not racial pride is an arbitrary line drawn at the most convenient point from your perspective.
If whites, blacks, Asians, whomever want to get together and celebrate their race, what gives you competence to judge that ideology?
Eileen,
You can understand why “separatism” is a pretty scary prospect for us Jews. When you get into separatism, that’s when I get the creeps. Unfortunately, your far right extremists push our leftists against the wall and radicalize them — and vice versa.
The NAACP champions African Americans, which is an ethnic group distinct from Africans, and composed of people derived largely from West Africa. There are ongoing debates within the community about the meaning of “African American,” for example, the question of whether Obama, son of an actual African, is “African American.”
Although I’m being labelled as intolerant, I absolutely encourage people to celebrate their ethnic heritage, or heritages. But to me, something like “Paneuropeanism” or “Panafricanism” is artificial and harmful, because it doesn’t celebrate or preserve culture, it homogenizes it and waters it down to the lowest common denominator. I would rather have people know their own folklore and cultural customs than simply embrace a watered down “Europeanness” in which ones own history and family background is obscured.
At any rate, you can’t accuse me of having a double standard and saying that I’m denying white Americans anything that I’m allowing black Americans–I said both were stupid.
As for being “arbitrary,” I would say that a definition of “European” that excludes Jews is about as arbitrary as it gets. Did your family come from a more European part of Europe than my own?
I think it’s kind of funny that I’m being labeled as intolerant, hateful, and “Europhobic” because I believe in celebrating European cultural identities and taking pride on one’s European ethnic background. I think the world would be much better off if everyone were as intolerant as me.
The Man, evoking the “good Jewish friend so, see?, I can’t be racist”-attempt at dialectics, are we?
I’ll agree with Jewdar; there’s no Pan-European identity as little as there is a univocal African identity. (Even “African-American” identity is a construct as there is no commonly shared cultural premise other than a continent of one’s ancestors origin.) Just because somebody identifies with the geographical location of Europe respectively Africa and traces back their ancestors to either doesn’t mean they identify with the entire scope of cultures.
BTW, you can only be proud of achievements, not of things you’ve had no doing in. “Pride” in race / ethnicity etc. is nothing but vanity and hubris. As the odds are 1:6.500.000.000, we are who we are as random as it gets.
Here’s what I’ll say–all identity is constructed, and given trends in Europe, it’s not unreasonable to image that at some point in the future, a “United States of Europe” helps to coalesce some kind of unified European identity.
As things stand today, however, while I think it’s great if hypothetical German-American George Buchholz decides to celebrate his heritage, I think it would be absurd if he did so by eating spaghetti, washing it down with ouzo, going Irish stepdancing, and going to bed while reading Don Qixote.
With respect Sarah…Bite me! By your definition I have no doubt that to you I am racist, and also that by your somewhat lunatic definition everyone, including you is racist, rendering that word laughably meaningless.
What I think you were attempting to say was that I was trying to shield myself from charges of Anti-Semitism, as I’m not Amti-Semetic, nor racist in any actual way I don’t really care what you think, but yes, I will be enjoying dinner with a very good friend who is a gay Jewish gentleman of my acquaintance for Dinner this upcoming Saturday with my wife, and I will share with him what Jewdar said, which I find repulsive and I think and believe my friend will as well.
Which part of this are you having a hard time with/is there anything else you’d like to call me a liar about?
Also, what I have a problem with Jewdar is you arbitrarily deciding who can and cannot express ethnic solidarity. Goose — Gander some assembly required. One grows tired of watching their people being displaced and then when someone like me has the audacity to complain to be told that I am racist, a liar and an Anti-Semite?
You guys ever get a second dinner invite? Because unlike you I know how conduct myself in a public debate and receive second dinner invitations all the time. I even manage to not call my hosts liars or JOOOOOOS! You should try it sometime, its kind of refreshing.
Oh, and Jewdar? Um, being White hardly shields you from being a self hating White, now does it? In fact some of the most fanatically committed to the cause of White Genocide are themselves White.
1. I actually celebrate ethnic solidarity, so I’m not sure what you’re accusing me of. German is an ethnicity, Ukrainian is an ethnicity, “European” is not, though, as I suggested, it might be one day.
2. As far as being arbitrary goes, I’ll say again that it doesn’t get much more arbitrary than constructing a “European” identity that excludes Jews, seeing as how we’ve been living in Europe for a few thousand years.
3. Although I didn’t actually accuse you of antisemitism, you can’t really come to the defense of someone who calls his blog”Antisemitica,” and then profess to being outraged that someone would suggest that you are an antisemite yourself.
Also, you’ve accused me of being intolerant, hateful, self-hating–rather than just name-calling (and you’re supposed to be a good dinner guest), could you actually point out where I’ve expressed hatred for whites, Europeans, or any class of people? Again, you may disagree with my ideas of ethnicity, but based on what I’ve said, you can hardly say I’m hostile to European whites. So what exactly have I said that’s so hateful?
I am about ready to concede that this framing of debate and discussion was probably not the best choice on my part.
Does…does that mean that you don’t think I’m hateful, Kelsey?
Jewdar, I think that we have tough questions in front of us to grapple with. Very tough questions. And I would like kind people like yourself to be willing to do so, though it is admittedly an unnerving, even painful task.
See, know just when I think you’re a hopeless lunatic, you say something menschlich. You don’t make it easy on him, but that pintele yid of yours is still working hard on your behalf.
This essay is really good: http://guywhite.wordpress.com/.....ach-other/
With respect Sarah…Bite me!
[. . .]
You guys ever get a second dinner invite? Because unlike you I know how conduct myself in a public debate and receive second dinner invitations all the time. I even manage to not call my hosts liars or JOOOOOOS!
a) You don’t know how to conduct yourself in public debate as little as you know how to make a coherent point.
b) Debating over a meal is poor manners.
c) Learn how to cook so you won’t need to fake being a friendly chap just to get something to eat.
“I would rather have people know their own folklore and cultural customs”
That’s not really your call. Why are you so passionate about creating this distinction? How does it effect you if people celebrate their race?
“than simply embrace a watered down “Europeanness” in which ones own history and family background is obscured.”
Why would that bother you? As for me personally, I’m a Jew, partly from Europe, partly from Iran. I just don’t presume to tell others how to celebrate their heritage while their being reasonable and not advocating for my demise.
“The NAACP champions African Americans, which is an ethnic group distinct from Africans, and composed of people derived largely from West Africa.”
Patently false. They make no such distinction. It seems like it’s only people of your like mind insist that making such distinctions is some sort of imperative. As a matter of fact a co-worker of mine who is of African descent but not African American was just honored by them for her work as a journalist.
I’m not sure where you’re contradicting me. The NAACP is an organization that champions the rights of African Americans, which is a group distinct from Africans, in the same way that it is distinct from Afro-Brazilians or Afro-Britons. That has nothing to do with a broader cultural imperative to celebrate a pan-African identity. Indeed, officially, it has nothing to do with African culture. Funny that you would accuse me of making decisions for other people, when you seem fairly eager to assume for the NAACP a role that they don’t take. Here’s what their objectives are, from their website:
“Objectives
The following statement of objectives is found on the first page of the NAACP Constitution — the principal objectives of the Association shall be:
* To ensure the political, educational, social, and economic equality of all citizens
* To achieve equality of rights and eliminate race prejudice among the citizens of the United States
* To remove all barriers of racial discrimination through democratic processes
* To seek enactment and enforcement of federal, state, and local laws securing civil rights
* To inform the public of the adverse effects of racial discrimination and to seek its elimination
* To educate persons as to their constitutional rights and to take all lawful action to secure the exercise thereof, and to take any other lawful action in furtherance of these objectives, consistent with the NAACP’s Articles of Incorporation and this Constitution.”
Absolutely nothing there about a broader Pan-African cultural agenda.
As for my opinions on pride in one’s heritage, leaving aside the fact that “Pan Europeanism” as expressed by the posters here pretty clearly is a front from antisemitism (remember, this all started with a blog called “Antisemitica”), people can do whatever stupid thing they want to do. If somebody believes that all musicians share a common heritage, or all people with red hair, or all people under 5″7 1/2. And if they want to celebrate “Under 5″71/2 Pride,” they are free to do so. And I’m free to think it’s stupid, like I think it’s stupid for a German American to celebrate his heritage by eating spaghetti and going stepdancing. God bless America, where people still have the right to be stupid, and to make fun of people for being stupid. Wait a minute…do you hate America?
Guy White decided to help Hunter out with his questions:
http://guywhite.wordpress.com/.....nd-whites/
Jewdar,
Don’t play dense. I’ve read your stuff on Heeb, I know it not to be so. Their group is called “Nation Association for the Advancement of Colored People.” Does that imply that they limit themselves to championing one group of ethnic West Africans? Additionally, my friend, as I explained, is not African-American by birth, but she is black. So clearly they don’t define their racial championing in as limited terms as you’d like to impose on them. Their mission statement is replete with the word “race” and “racial.” I don’t see anything about ethnicity in what you posted.
“you can’t really come to the defense of someone who calls his blog”Antisemitica,” and then profess to being outraged that someone would suggest that you are an antisemite yourself.”
That’s a very close-minded perspective. One can’t read sources in opposition to their own political leanings — or even defend them when they do make sense? Are you a believer in meaningful dialogue? Cause that means sometimes conceding to the other side — or at least that’s the point.
My points was not that they only defend people of West African descent, only that most African Americans are of West African descent. You brought up the NAACP in the context of Pan-African cultural identity, and nothing you’ve posted supports that. It’s not an organization committed to Pan-African cultural identity, it’s an organization committed primarily to supporting blacks in America. It doesn’t take an opinion on Pan-Africanism.
As far as whether or not “African-America” includes people actually from Africa, this isn’t my decision, this is a matter of ongoing debate in the African American community. For example: http://articles.sfgate.com/200.....-candidate
And I don’t believe that I can have a meaningful dialogue with someone who calls himself an antisemite.
“And I don’t believe that I can have a meaningful dialogue with someone who calls himself an antisemite.”
That sucks, because there’s a hell of a lot of them. Too many to dismiss completely.
There aren’t enough that I lose any sleep over them, and if there were, there’d really be no point in having a dialogue.
I’ve outlined above in how far Antisemtica’s post is nothing but poor rhetorics, cheap polemics, fallacious logics and disingenuous insinuations. There’s no point in debating people like that as a debate aims to lead to results in a constructive way, not to stroke the ego of someone who reasons on a level that makes me cringe. Antisemitica doesn’t really ask questions; she makes accusations.
Don’t worry, Jewdar. There will be soon enough if we open the immigration flood gates. White nationalists will be the least of our communal woes.
Great, then we’re in agreement that I don’t need to dialogue with them. See, we’re not so different after all.
Sarah, Antisemitica is a dude. He’s moderated a bit recently, after discovering that the Nazis were actually, well, you know — Nazis.
Jewdar, I am more interested in getting you to address affirmative action (A.K.A. reverse discrimination). Also, do you support ending/limiting welfare, or do you still pretend that everyone on welfare really wants to work?
DK, then he might want to consider calling himself Antisemiticus. (The “-a” morpheme either is a Latin feminine singular, neuter plural or Greek neuter plural ending.)
Actually, Antisemitica is a blog. A blog run by a guy who calls himself Hunter Wallace.
Actually, Antisemitica is a blog.
Oh, thank you SO MUCH for the clarification, Harold.
And a blog is grammatically neuter.
I wasn’t being laughably supercilious or disagreeable in whatever other way you seem to have read into my comment. I was simply replying to Sarah/froylein with a neutral statement of fact.
Bad hosting, DK. Considering how you treated Harold when he was trying to be helpful, I’m bowing out.
Jewdar:”This sort of Paneuropean identity as as stupid as Panafrican identity. The cultures on these continents are too diverse to claim some sort of common culture.”
Racial Pan-Europeanism IS coming, and no one can stop it – the momentum is building. Whites are more closely related to each other than any other racial group, whilst Africans as a race are the least related.
The White Imperium, or ‘Imperium Evropa’ stretching from Far Eastern Russia to Europe-proper to the British Isles to Iberia to the USA and Canada and on to White Latin America and Australia/NZ…it is on its way – in the words of FP Yockey:
“Democratic ideologists, with their heads buried deep in the sand, say that maybe a bad monarch will appear. But the imperative of History is not to produce a perfect system, but to fulfill the historical mission. It was this that produced Democracy and it is this that now pays no attention to the whining of the Past, but only to be the rumble of the Future. Good or bad, the monarchs are coming.
On the front of the tottering edifice is printed in gaudy letters: Democracy. But behind it is seen to be a cash-till, and the banker sits, running his hands through the money that was the blood of the Western nations. He looks up in terror, as the sound of marching feet is heard.
The Future of the West demands the committing of great forces into the hands of great men. The erection of a Tradition of politics is a hope; from the chaos of 1950 there is no hope. Only great men can bridge the gap.” – http://www.vaidilute.com/books.....um-03.html
Jewdar:”constructing a “European” identity that excludes Jews, seeing as how we’ve been living in Europe for a few thousand years.”
Jews have not lived in Europe for “a few thousand years.” The earliest records of Ashkenazi Jews go back only to around 1000AD, though some Jews lived earlier in Iberia (mostly Sephardi), Rome (ditto), and a few other places.
Jews settlement of Europe only goes back reliably 2,000 years at most, and often a lot less – when you consider that Europeans have been in Europe for around 30,000+ years, then the Jews with their 1-2,000 years isn’t much at all.
ALL Jews, even ‘European’ Ashkenazi Jews, are entirely distinguishable from White/Europeans in a genetic sense – http://www.gnxp.com/blog/2008/04/snps-dont-lie.php – “This SNP study (and others) also shows that Ashkenazim are genetically distinct from other Europeans, which allows fairly accurate identification of group membership. Almost perfectly distinct, if you look at Ashkenazim whose grandparents are all Ashkenazi (the violet dots). Obviously, there was low inward gene flow for a long time, but that has increased a lot in the last century.”
Hey Harold, that’s ok. The name still doesn’t fit as “blog” is neuter singular.
66, do you really believe that European identity is becoming a non-distinguishable mishmash? And the 1950s were chaos compared to what?
when you consider that Europeans have been in Europe for around 30,000+ years
Does anyone know what this is based on? Aren’t most Europeans from much, much more recent migrations?
German, French, Spanish, etc. are ethnicities that are a subset of “European.” Create a little Venn diagram in your head and work it out.
You’re splitting hairs over geographic separation. WEB DuBois and the other founders of the NAACP were big proponents of Pan-Africanism. NAACP stands for “National Association for the Advancement of Colored People” – no mention of “African Americans” only. The fact that the NAACP doesn’t represent Afro-Britons (lol) doesn’t mean that they wouldn’t if they moved here.
There’s no evidence you want meaningful dialogue. You want to punt on issues Gentiles here have raised while attempting to look like you’ve placed yourself above all of our nasty prejudices. You’d have us believe you’re some sort of higher moral being.
Call me an antisemite, I don’t care. I think the comments on this thread have reinforced quite a bit of what Hunter Warren has written.
I find this hard to believe. Judaism in the West has worked hard to create a separate identity and culture from the rest of us. Moreover, isn’t Israel set up around the idea of Jewish identity and Lebensraum? Isn’t that separatism?
Why is what’s good for the goose not good for the gander?
DK, that’s true. The “natives” of Europe are almost completely extinct. Neanderthals migrated to the area of today’s Kazakhstan when Cromagnon humans started spreading. The Celtic people of Western Europe stem from either Siberia or the Middle East and arrived here less than 10,000 years ago. Bear in mind, about 12,000 years ago, a mega-vulcano erupted in what now is Germany (5 miles away from my home actually) with about ten-times the force of the Mt St-Helens eruption of the 1980s; stones from that eruption were found in layers of ground in places as far away as Japan. An eruption like that must have killed large shares of the European population and have made Northern and Central Europe a hostile environment to live in for quite some time.
PRCalDude, there has never been a German ethnicity other than in an artificial construct held up by the most twisted propagandists of all times. Even the Germanic tribe Germans are named after has completely died out. Germany’s comprised out of lots of different ethnicities and cultures. German unification was initially forced upon German-speaking people through Bismarck, then the Nazis. The German language is our lingua franca. Most people here speak dialects (i.e. regional languages) so distinct that they cannot be understood in other parts of Germany.
I know several Germans who would dispute that. Again, there are subsets of what constitutes “German,” but there is an overall Germanic people. Tacitus wrote a book about Germania, after all.
I found no evidence when I visited any of the national German museums that German ethnicity was an “artificial construct.” My Bavarian friends are proud Bavarians, but consider themselves “German” and don’t believe German ethnicity is an artificial construct.
I think you’re propagating Frankfurt School lies.
I think your German friends are part of the lowest ranks of German societies that don’t speak dialects cause they are culturally displaced. Bavarians, after all, speak “Bajuwarisch”, a Celtic dialect. Bavarians stem from “Bajuwaren”, a definitely non-Germanic Celtic tribe.
Have you read Tacitus’ Germania? It only covers select tribes north of the Danube and east of the Rhine River.
This comment really speaks for itself. You should probably avoid lecturing anyone on bigotry for the time being.
Like I said, this thread is like watching Wallace’ assertions being proven by the very people claiming their false.
I’d assume Hunter Wallace, in choosing “Antisemitica” for his blog, might have words like “Judaica” or “Militaria” on his mind; doesn’t need Mensa I.Q to get it.
66, we actually seem to be in some agreement. When you say Pan-Europeanism is coming, that suggests it isn’t here. I specifically stated that given current trends in Europe, that day may come, but we’re not there today, and so to speak of such an identity today is stupid.
Moreover, we agree pretty much about the history of Jews in Europe.European Jewish history doesn’t being with Ashkenazim; the community of Ashkenaz (the medieval Hebrew term for Germany, basically) migrated from Southern Europe, where Jews had already been living for a thousand years or so. Jews were living in Rome since at least the last decades of the Republic, and quite possibly living in Greece since before then. I never stated that Jews had lived there longer than everyone else. But Europe’s Jews have been part of Europe for a few thousand years–they are “European.” but they have been living in the heartland of Europe longer than the Magyars. So if your definition of “European” is going to be based on how long a people have lived in Europe, it’s rather arbitrary to include Magyars, and exclude Jews. If, by contrast, your goal is simply to frame a white identity that excludes Jews, then simply say it and leave out this PC effort to come up with a newer, friendlier face of White Pride. At this point, it seems we are arguing about a definition of “European” which none of the people accusing me of intolerance has clearly defined. If you want to define “European” as being “People who’ve lived in Europe for a long time who aren’t Jews,” then say so. Until then, “European,” to me, includes European Jews who’ve lived there for thousands of years, which is longer than some other people who are considered Europeans.
I think we have a different idea of what we mean by Pan-Africanism. What I’m talking about is doing things like making up holidays like Kwanzaa that mix up diverse cultures into a meaningless mishmash in the name of “African” identity. The NAACP doesn’t have a cultural mission that leads it to create a pan-african cultural identity, which is what I’m talking about. It is a civil rights watchdog group, so obviously, it involves itself with all blacks in America, but it’s not involved in creating a broad, cultural identity that transcends national borders. When somebody migrates from Kenya to the US, his rights become a concern for the NAACP; but the NAACP takes no position on whether or not the peoples of Kenya share the same culture as the people peoples of Nigeria. Hope that clears up my points on that.
Dubois, to be sure, was involved in such efforts, but the fact that he was a founder of the group doesn’t mean that the group was (it wasn’t) or is today. By your logic, the American Jewish Committee must still be opposed to Zionism, because it was at its inception.
As far as having a dialogue with antisemites, why would I want to have a dialogue with someone who defines himself as being hostile to me? If you say you’re not an antisemite, PRCaldude, that’s fine. I never said you were. But the guy who makes antisemitica clearly is. If I had a blog entitled “Hatred of Whites,” I would expect to be perceived as someone who hates whites. If I sprang to the defense of that website, I’d expect to be perceived as someone who hates whites, unless I qualified my statements. I presume that you have no interest in having a dialogue with someone who hates you; same goes for me.
And a whole lot of people keep accusing me of intolerance; I’d still like to see where I’ve expressed any bias towards whites or Europeans. Again, you can disagree with my opinions on the nature of culture or ethnicity, but have I said anything that even remotely suggests antagonism towards Europeans? I’ll say it again–I want people of European descent to be proud of their heritage and celebrate their heritage. I hardly think it expresses intolerance on my part to say that it is more reasonable for a German-American to celebrate his heritage by learning German than by learning Greek, just as it is more reasonable for an African-American, who in all likelihood is descended from West Africans, to learn Yoruba than Swahili. Or that it makes more sense to me for an African American to adopt an actual West African religious festival than to make up a synthetic, Pan-African holiday like Kwanzaa, and it makes more sense for the German American to celebrate Heiligabend than to celebrate “Pan-Europeanmas” or some such thing.
So if you want to accuse me of intolerance for encouraging white Americans of European descent to take pride in their heritage and history, I plead guilty.
jewdar,
If someone is part Italian, part Swedish, part Lithuanian (not Litvak like DK), part British, part Irish, part huguenot…why would they celebrate ethnicity instead of race?
And isn’t it natural for European whites to want to remain the majority in the U.S.? In Israel, even the most dovish, secular two-stater Israeli groups are concerned with a Jewish majority.
PRCalDude, studies in the aftermaths of PISA have verified that claim – the more educated people in Germany speak some sort of dialect as a mother tongue. Especially Bavarians are known to groom their dialects, schools in Cologne offer regular classes in Ripuarian, Northern German schools make Frisian mandatory, Sorbs learn Sorbian etc. I grew up speaking Moselle-Franconian.
Bantam, maybe it doesn’t take a MENSA IQ either to see that “militaria” and “Judaica” refer to concrete objects, not thoughts. A Jewish prayer isn’t an item of Judaica, but a Jewish prayer book is. So it’s still either foreign grammar or an analogy gone badly wrong.
You’re a Litvak? Now it all makes sense.
Let’s take your example–if that guy wants to celebrate all his ancestry, that’s fine with me. but that would make it even more stupid for a French, Lithuanian, Italian, Swedish, Irish, English (which is what I presume you mean by “British,”) to celebrate his heritage by learning Portuguese. I mean, the guy has half a dozen languages he could claim as part of his heritage, and he claims one that isn’t? Crazy stuff.
I made absolutely no criticism of American whites of European descent for wanting to remain the majority; indeed, I made absolutely no criticism of American whites of European descent, period, and I said nothing about American demographics, whatsoever. Considering how much I have written here about other subjects, I would appreciate only being criticized for the things I actually said.
Finally, it’s not like my views are particularly radical. Whatever form PanEuropean identity takes in the future, it’s pretty clear that a whole lot of Europeans today identify more strongly with their own ethnicity, and not some sort of collective. How many Irish feel they share a common identity with the English? How many Croats feel they share a common identity with the Serbs (and these two examples actually did share a country)? Poles and Russians? Hungarians and Russians? Latvians and Russians? Lithuanians and Poles? Germans and Czechs? Flemings and Walloon?
Now, I’m sure you can offer me examples of Paneuropeanists in all of these groups, but in none can you demonstrate that they represent a majority. I think it pretty fair to say that if my attitudes mark me as a racist, I have good company among European whites.
And I’m still waiting for someone to point out where I have expressed any malice, ill-will, or hatred to American whites of European descent.
Okay, it just occurred to me why perhaps there’s this focus on the NAACP–if white Americans of European descent want to form a civil rights watchdog organization like the NAACP, as long as doesn’t maintain any hostility to, or recommend discrimination against other groups (a “National Association for the Advancement of White People”run by a klansman, for example, would be a problem), I have no problem with it. That, to me, has nothing to do with one’s cultural heritage, any more than the NAACP has to do with cultural heritage. Does that clarify anything?
1. I actually celebrate ethnic solidarity, so I’m not sure what you’re accusing me of. German is an ethnicity, Ukrainian is an ethnicity, “European” is not, though, as I suggested, it might be one day.
We’re just taking a page from the Jewish playbook. There is no “Jewish culture” either. You’ve got French Jews, German Jews, Russian Jews, Spanish Jews. But when they show up here in America they’re just Jews as far as their organization goes.
Same here.
It’s hilarious to hear people that have no business discussing the validity of identity of Euros (Jews and people who think the very idea repugnant) deciding amongst themselves that very issue.
Please do tell us in what way it’s valid for us to identify, and how we should be allowed to express that identity. We’re hanging on every word. Oh, and go **** yourself.
2. As far as being arbitrary goes, I’ll say again that it doesn’t get much more arbitrary than constructing a “European” identity that excludes Jews, seeing as how we’ve been living in Europe for a few thousand years.
Descendants of European Christendom. What’s arbitrary about that?
Jewishness is all about exclusion, but when the shoe’s on the other foot, most of you guys go ape****. Typical. It’s not a sign of good mental health, that the vast majority of you guys consider any (white) category that excludes Jews to be “eeeeeviilllll.” Get over yourselves.
Ethnopatriots want for ourselves what Jews have for themselves in Israel. When you can deal with this without deception, dissembling, special pleading, etc., get back to me. KTHXBYE.
When you can deal with this without deception, dissembling, special pleading, etc., get back to me.
No one here is looking to you for anything, Svigor.
1. So don’t say “European,” say “European Christian,” and I don’t have a problem. Saying European without Jews, is fairly arbitrary.
2. I’m not sure pointing out the history and current status of European ethnic divisiveness constitutes “going ape****” If you wish to challenge my above statement that:
“Whatever form PanEuropean identity takes in the future, it’s pretty clear that a whole lot of Europeans today identify more strongly with their own ethnicity, and not some sort of collective. How many Irish feel they share a common identity with the English? How many Croats feel they share a common identity with the Serbs (and these two examples actually did share a country)? Poles and Russians? Hungarians and Russians? Latvians and Russians? Lithuanians and Poles? Germans and Czechs? Flemings and Walloon?
Now, I’m sure you can offer me examples of Paneuropeanists in all of these groups, but in none can you demonstrate that they represent a majority. I think it pretty fair to say that if my attitudes mark me as a racist, I have good company among European whites.”
Please do so. Until then I’ll stand by my comment that whatever Pan-European ethnic identity might coalesce in the future, it isn’t there now. And it seems most Europeans, and Americans of European descent, would probably agree with me.
Actually, here’s a great idea–next month, during the St. Patrick’s Day Parade, why don’t all the people accusing me of intolerance for suggesting that Americans of European descent don’t feel a shared cultural identity go parading down 5th Avenue waving a Union Jack, and see how many of the parade-watchers see you as being just another fellow European showing pride in your collective heritage.
jewdar, that isn’t a good example, since those are both different and often hostile ethnicities/nationalities.
Yes, you have hit precisely on my point. They are different ethnicities, and yet both Europeans. As are Russians/Poles, Russians/Latvians, Serbs/Croats, Flemings/Walloons, and so on. The whole point is that Europeans–and their American co-nationals, do not see themselves as sharing a collective identity, but rather–as you noted–view themselves as “different and often hostile ethnicities/nationalities.” One more time, “different and often hostile ethnicities/nationalities,” not a shared identity as Europeans.
jewdar,
That is true for the example you gave: one between European ethnicity and European ethnicity.
But between race and race?
Give most whites the choice between an “African” neighborhood, and a “European but not Jewish” neighborhood to live in or walk through at 2 am in the morning, and no one is going to be questioning whether there is such a thing as a “European” identity.
Svigor is from a group that prides itself on being nasty, and does not want a polite discussion with Jews because to do so is unmanly in those circles.
But his question stands.
Blacks DO have a sense of racial identity. Jews often have a mix of both racial and religious identity.
How can you say whites don’t? Because people also break it down by ethnic identity? So what?
There are many ways to break down identity. To say there is no such thing makes no sense. Give most Christians the choice between living in a predominantly mixed ethnic European Christian neighborhood or a European Jewish neighborhood or a mixed racial Christian neighborhood, I have no problem conceding most will pick a European Christian neighborhood.
So what?
You’re not getting it–I’m not objecting to the racial identity–I’m objecting to the adoption of PC language by pretending that it’s a “European cultural identity.” If they want to argue for a “Euro-American” cultural identity to contrast with African-American, I’d be fine with that. It’s the claim that there is a unified “European,” as opposed to “Euro-American” identity which I find absurd. I’m now prepared for the new round of name-calling.
Jewdar, your argument is pure pedantry and semantics. Stop perpetuating the stereotype.
I’m not sure what it is you’re objecting to, Mike. I have no problem with American whites of European Christian descent banding together to create some sort of civil rights watchdog group, and I have no problem with American whites of European Christian descent being proud of and celebrating their heritage. My only issue–the same one I have with blacks celebrating Kwanzaa–is taking actual cultures and mixing them all up in some sort acultural and ahistorical deracinated, homogenized mishmash. I’ll say it again–a German American going Irish stepdancing and eating spaghetti to celebrate his heritage is silly, and so far, nobody has explained why it isn’t, nor explained why it is that my attitudes–which don’t seem particularly hostile to me (see above about what I don’t have a problem with) are hateful or intolerant. And now, I guess we can add pedantic to the list. As for semantics, what are you, Mike, antisemantic?
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